When trapped with hands and legs...

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, I have found myself thinking about what to do in worst case scenerios. Like when someone has stuck to you, has superior leg posistion (like a leg pressing your knee or ankle, or in a sweeping position) and has one or both of your arms trapped and is coming at you strong. I keep thinking elbows in that situation, like a cup jong or the straight crossing elbow or the upper cut elbow once they close in. However, those may be good answers on the streets, but I can't elbow my kung fu brother while sparring. Its too dangerous, and high risk of me hurting him.

I have tried changing my foot work with a lop or a biu or taan sao. I have tried cross stepping back and then coming back in with a kick and try to get better foot position. What are some other ideas I can train? My first reaction might be an elbow on the streets (I love elbows) but in the kwoon thats not very nice or respectful to my fellow brothers and sisters. So, I lets discuss how to change the situation into it being beneficial for you over them. What are some ways you would reverse a bad situation?

[namron]

Have you tried changing the level and working a take down (i.e. grappling move).

Can be done quickly and it can be a good get out of jail card

Petition some of the better grapplers on the forum for advice.

Other options you've probably already covered, full back step, changing line and freeing ther elbow to jam kick or re-enter...etc...

PS: I like the elbows to but they can open up the face of you training buddy real easy if miscued, try smashing him in the chest with the pointy bit and see if you can break balance/momentum.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah I have covered ground fighting/grappling before. I am trying to improve my stand up right now. I will train more of my ground fighting/grappling another time.

I have tried going into the clench and kneeing a few times in the last couple of weeks (guess I have been watching too much ong bak lately hahaha)

[Gangsterfist]

The thing is, I grapple too much sometimes. I always go for an arm bar or chin na move, or a take down when under pressure like that. I am trying to develope a new skill set just incase that would be a bad idea.

I thought of using a taiji technique called fly like a bird. Basically you hop back a full step and it creates enough space to perhaps get into a better position. However, if your opponet is keen to this they will fly like a bird right with you (sticking) and you will find yourself right back where you started.

[canglong]

Understanding the proper use of time space and energy is always the first step.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by canglong
Understanding the proper use of time space and energy is always the first step.

Sorry, I have tried to understand this concept but it always escapes me. I am not into the time/space/energy/harmony logic. If it works for you, then thats cool, I just don't get it. Plus I am talking real applications and not theory here. I can talk wing chun theory all day long. I am trying to find useful techniques I don't normally use so I can train more attributes. However, thanks for your input.

[canglong]

Just curious to date how many techniques have you collected?

[Gangsterfist]

I have no idea of the exact number but I will list a few here, and I may not remember them all at the moment. Please add anything if I miss it as well.

Lon Sao, using a hard technique like lon sao can help your arms get out of a trap. You can do it with both arms using the elbows like in chum kiu

Huen Ma, circling the legs inside or outside can sometimes put them into another position which can turn the tables and make it beneficial for you.

Elbows, like I mentioned above. Dropping, cross, uppercut, cup jong, hooking, discreet, etc (I am sure every school has their own names and sets of elbows. I learned the 11 elbows set from my sifu, who learned it when he was cross training in the sonny tang system. Its just a neat little set of elbows, nothing too special but a decent training tool)

Cross step back and drill back in with a kick for re-entry. Circle or draw back the leg being stuck or attacked into a cross stance. Cross leg stance is like a bong sao, you never want to stay in that position usually (I am sure there might be a few rare instances you may want to stay in cross leg stance) and then come right back in with a kick. This is something I see TKD people do and it makes your opponet change their stance and movements to block or counter yours.

Triangling foot work can also be used similar to the huen ma.

Lops can be used to throw them off balance and gain the advantage. I found lopping on the shoulder/neck area and pulling down towards my center makes a decent move and can put you in an advantageous position.

Of course there is the clench and grappling take down stuff, but I am trying not to do that and expand my stand up.

Retreating, fly like a bird technique, but not necessarily the best idea.

Splitting your oppoents energies (put opposite force on two different parts of the body to split them and throw them off balance).

Knees. Kneeing will bring my leg up and take it out of its bad position and can scrape down the leg on re-entry.

That is all I can think of off the top of my head. Anything you wish to add would be appreciated.

Thanks,
GF

[Nick Forrer]

Quan sau (bong/tan togther) is very good for when you are in close and need to make space

Also if some one tries a takedown- can try the following three step procedure
- 1 sink your weight
- 2 widen your stance/legs
- 3 try to wedge your elbows underneath theirs and lever upwards

Also can grab the chin and twist the head- shearing type technique that hurts the neck

Key is timing- have to do it as they go for the takedown- small window which if you miss it you are going down.

BTW well down gf for listing actual techniques rather than empty confucianisms

[S.Teebas]

I think the key is to keep moving. If you freeze then you're giving your opponent an easier target to strike. Also it changes the line of attack they may be using (this would depend on how much they are pressing on you - {keep relaxed and give them nothing to press}) or if they are using a highly refined level of focus, in which case you might just be out-numbered skill-wise, and have to bite the bullet that there are people who are better then you.

Remembering to keeping relaxed and focused on the opponent also keeps them working. Don’t give your opponent a walk in the park, even if you can't hit him (if that’s what your trying to do in this training situation) you can still keep the pressure on him if you keep your structure as sound as possible, and your intention fully directed at him.... so when you DO find a line he isn't covering, you can come straight in that way.

I see WC as first find out how to USE your body, then working out what to do with it. A technique could be named, but the specific force being applied by your opponent would mean the movement would not be as correct as another (depending on which direction his force is coming...and going). So I think it is hard to as for a specific technique as an answer, and expect it to work: i.e. when someone does 'Trap A', and you try to do 'Escape A' to counter it. Sometimes unexpected, but good, results occur when you listen to the force (with your chi sau skills) then react from what feel is an appropriate path to follow. Like WSL said once: "Make sure you know what’s going on, don’t just guess." Or something along those lines

[canglong]

originally posted by gangsterfist
Lops can be used to throw them off balance and gain the advantage.

Actual you gain time and (space)

originally posted by gangsterfist
Splitting your oppoents energies (put opposite force on two different parts of the body to split them and throw them off balance).

Using energy to gain space and thus time well said.

originally posted by Nick Forrer
Key is timing -

Benefitial in all instances.
Sometimes we say the same things but hear something different it happens.
Enjoy

A little something for my friend Mr Forrer...

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.
Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.
Not seeing desireable things prevents confusion of the heart.

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies,
by weakening ambitions and strenghthening bones.
If people lack knowlege and desire,
then intellectuals will not try to interfere.
If nothing is done, then all will be well.

[Gangsterfist]

When I said to do a cross step, scratch that. Its not wing chun, I subconsciencously picked it up from another system. The stepping back and kicking would be done in one motion, like from the dummy form probably with a bong sao. Same thing, just compacted into one motion.

Nick-

Quan (qwan) sao is a great idea. However, I find myself really only using it against kicks. I know it has more applications than just that, but it seems its my habbit of only using it for kicks. I would probably use gan sao or mon sao to sweep the area and create space. However, good point and it could be used. I'll need to practice that one.

I just got back from class and a friend of sifu's trained with us today. He studied bagua, taiji, juijitsu and hsing-i. I learned a lot about southern kung fu today. A lot of it is all very similar, just different motions and ideas.

I am going to need some time to think a bit before i get back to these last ditch effort techniques.

[Nick Forrer]

'A little something for my friend Mr Forrer...'

Thanks very much Mr Jacobs!

Something in return

'A joke is an epigram on the death of a feeling'

-Nietzsche

[blooming lotus]

I think the important thing in that situation is how your arms are trapped...like to front, the side, back??etc...and where both of yurs and your opponents foot balance is at? when you consider those questions, your defense strategy kinda becommes subjective and could then be one of many many different counters

[Da_Moose]

Gangster,

Not to be a wise guy or anything, but if your arms are trapped, how do you intend to successfully execute an elbow strike? While you're busy unsticking yourself from your opponent, he is free to unload on you. You first need to disengage to create the space to deliver your elbow without it, or your legs, being checked / assaulted as you try to attack. Even if one arm is trapped and your legs are 'stuck', you still need to create some space and disengage. If your opponent has influence on your center, you need to recover that center before mounting a successful counter attack.

Like Blooming Lotus said, it also depends on the nature of the trap your arms are in and what you need to do first to recover.



Steve