Defense against circular arm swings

[Nghia]

I popped this question to my sifu at my club and some of the seniors. Most responded saying that if you move in and hit first (since the straight path is quicker than the circular one) that will also stop their swing, as in they will get hit and cease to continue swinging. I was wondering what happens if the arms kept swinging, or even a simultaenous hit from both people.

I once saw a book in the city by Bruce Lee when he was still young and doing Wing Chun that showed a differnt counter. On the ongaurd stance when the opponent swings he leans back. When the opponent arm swings through he snaps back up quickly and chain punches.

I tried this and it felt quite comfortable doing but have yet to see if I can acutally do it!

Whats everyone opinion on this? or maybe you have another favourable counter.

[edward]

Hi, we've got a video on how to deal with a hook punch. The main thing when stopping a hook, is that the motion is circular, all to often people try to use blocks that create clash. Thus, how can that be the wing chun way, when in wing chun you go with the force.

Here's the link of the video to stopping the hooked punch

Hook punch video

hope this helps

[HuangKaiVun]

The Biu Jee set has an upward delivered side tan sao that is used to stop incoming roundhouse punches.

[MaFuYee]

Nice web site Ed.
i like the lop sau to shoulder attack drill.
that is almost exactly one of the movements from tai chi's 'DaLu'. - with the exception that it is back and forth on a straight line, rather than using circular footwork.

* i thought the hook counter was ok... however, it still leaves you directly in front of the attacker, and spins his body in the opposite directions that his force is comming from, rather than continuing/following his energy. - which means; you better watch out for his follow up, left hook.

- what if, instead, you kept the front foot (right) planted, and spun the back foot behind, and around 270 degrees. - connect to hook punch with a left tan sao, (then wrap his elbow), and continue his energy, while your right, can bong sao, to cover any attempt made with his left; and if none is made, can be used to elbow the guy in the jaw/neck. - all the while, you end up wrapping his body around yours, setting him up for a beautiful hip throw. - which you can augment by 'reaping' his legs. (meant as a leg break.)

- that is the tai chi way.

[edward]

Thanks for the comments, and definitely, if you want more detailed discussion you
should take a look at our mailing list.

Mailing list

As for the hook, that's one thing people seem to forget about Wing chun.. there is no
clash, however there's definitely allot of guts involved as well. Now, there are 2 kinds of
hook were talking about.. a short range and long hook. If its a short range, the path
of the force is a circular one, thus, the motion to counter with it, is circular as well.
Now that's the key clashing is what causes someone to do a second move. Imagine with me
for a second, your walking in the woods, and there's a hole in the ground. If your right
foot falls in this hole (and pretend that its bottom less), how can you step with your
left foot, until the right foot isn't planeted? However, thus the concept of going with the
force as opposed to clashing with the force. I hope this makes sense.

As for your comments, I appreciate them.. but I believe your style of application of
tan sau, is different from mine. The way I see it, using tan sau in that manner would be
like me using a hammer to saw a piece of wood. From my teaching, tan sau can never, be
applied without having a touch. If you watch the video of Siu Lim tao, the 1st part, the
only application of tan sau in our form, can be found only after the fok sau motion.

I hope to have a video of it soon to show other individuals our way of doing tan sau.

Now, you stated that is the tai chi way.. but remember, were doing the wing chun way

[HuangKaiVun]

There are no absolutes in kung fu, especially WC.

That Biu Jee tan sao I mentioned is used extensively in the Northern styles.

Why SHOULDN'T I use a tan sao in that manner if it stops a punch from hitting my head?

[benny]

EDWARD
i dont understand "From my teaching, tan sau can never, be applied without having a touch."

[HuangKaiVun]

MaFuYee, the "taiji" technique you mentioned is a classic WC technique. The Chum Kiu set works this technique quite hard.

That may be the taiji way, but it's also the WC way as well.

[Armin]

Hi there!

Well, I don't want to start another complicated discussion. I try to give an idea of how "we" solve this problem:

First: I try to frontkick him (my leg is longer than his arm is, so ...). Works nearly every time.

Second: Ok. It could be, that I don't kick him good enough. Now it depends on his attack. If he punches "very round" (nearly with a straightened arm), than he has a really long way to go and my forward-pushing hands hit him first. If he makes a "good" attack (starting at the shoulder and nearly, not altogether, forward) my forward-pushing hands get contact and change in a sort of hi-Bong-Sao and lead his punch over my head, or into Tan-Sao with a turn.

But this is still not the defensive-movement: this comes at the same thime with the other hand: a straight punch. For circular arm swings you need a very good stance/balance and if you get hit (esp. in the face) there'll be no power in your attack.


Armin.

PS: BTW: On a semiar I learned something out of "our" related Thai-Boxing: an "inside"-sweep, like the inside-punch. Very interesting

[rp]

I think your Sihings are right. Entering with forward momentum will be the simplest and most direct. Even you foul up the first time your momentum may throw the opponent off balance.

Practice it again and again.

BTW most hooks, if done properly are linear and well set up. They may come from very close and complicated moves will result in your demise.

In training chops and elbows and round punches appear to work becuase the defender does not move forward or fully release the power.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm 5'4", and I'll tell you from experience that forward momentum doesn't work against a roundhouse when your opponent is 8-12 inches taller than you.

Unless you can execute some sort of upward block to cover your head (specifically that reverse Tan Sao I mentioned above), you're going to get hit full blast by roundhouse punches - as I've been.

Fortunately, WC trains this technique quite effectively.

[Armin]

Hi HuanKaiVun (what's that kind of name?)!

I really don't understand your problem. Especially if you are smaller you have to step in/as close as possible. Believe me, the only point that hurts in this attack, is the fist. And if you step in, say near the bizeps, you won't get hurt. Ok. I know, it's a speed-problem. If you like to train stepping in quickly, try the following exercise:

Your partner attacks you with a circular arm swing, without step (so he's already in hitting distance). Hold your hands in front and very close to your body. Now step in straight with one big step and contact his chest with your hands (that remain at your chest).

The more exercise you get, the faster you can try and the better the attack of your partner should be.

Then change the exercise slightly. Use e. g. a step with an ellbow-attack (as counter) and your partner attacks with a step. If you've managed this counterattack, go on with a counter-punch.

It should take you not more than 3 or 4 months to get the needed speed.

BTW: Always remember, that you don't step in into "normal" punching distance. Use the Wing-Chun-punching-distance instead. This one is 20 cm closer!

That reminds me, no, I'll make a new thread for this.


See you soon,

Armin.

[WCFighter]

You guys ever use this against a round punch?
It is really effective.

Do BongSao-WuSao at the inside of the wrist of the attacker for a nano-second (to stop the punch from hitting
your face) and immediately execute a larp sao with
the bong sao hand (this will carry the fist over
your head to the other side). At this point you
can follow up with a punch with your other hand.

The sequence must be smooth so that the opponent
is able to continue swinging his arm with little
resistance, but the sequence brings it over your
head safely, and you are able to capitalize on
the opponents loss of balance and attack him
from the outside gate.

[HuangKaiVun]

Armin, HKV is a Taiwanese name.

Your drill is nice and teaches some speed, but it won't stop you from getting knocked out by a much taller opponent if you don't have the ability to block high.

How tall are you? Have you ever fought a resisting trained opponent who is at least a foot taller than you and outweighs you by 100 lbs?

If I were 5'8 and 150 (I'm actually SMALLER than that), I'd be fighting guys 6'8" and 250 - NBA sized power forwards!

[This message was edited by HuangKaiVun on 02-28-01 at 10:25 AM.]

[Armin]

Hi!

As I said: it's just an exercise. You have to keep several more things in your mind of course, when sparring or fighting on the street. I'll try to give you an idea: Don't start "blocking" when you see your enemy attacks (meaning: don't wait for his attack; if you're sure, that there will be a fight, attack with everything you have!). Don't go in "frontal", try to outline your enemy, esp. if he's bigger.

Yes, I fought several times against bigger and heavier enemies (even sometimes against two or more at once). Well, I'm about 1,83 m (thats about 6 ft.) and weigh around 110 kg (242 pds.).


Armin.