Bin Ladens latest speech

[David Jamieson]

mat-

I'm certain that even if bin laden didn't say this, teh neo con puppet masters of the shrub would make it up.

have you read "an end to evil" yet by Frum and Perle?

THat has to be the largest compilation of completely unsubstantiated garbage yet.

I am happy they wrote it because it exposes them for the vicious and predatory liars and scumbags that they really are in the current whitehouse.

I am confused mostly about how this idiot George Bush has managed to completely divide his country, start a new vietnam for himself, outsource 20,000 mercs in Iraq, virtually give up in Afghanistan and let the Taliban reroot and teh heroin trade to regrow again, and the list of bas sh.it goes on and on and on.

And then, He has the nerve to back Sharon on a unilateral scr.ew over of the palestinians while he totally renegs on his so called "road map for peace" which was crappy anyway, but at least it was giving some consideration to a palestinian free state which is pretty much the only thing that is gonna bring peace to the region.

Anyone who thinks that what is being done in teh middle east is "righteous" on behalf of bushes decisions, needs to examine their morality.

they have still failed to answer the question "why did 911 happen"

shutting up does nothing about it.

Bush should be impeached, Blair should be voted out, Iraq should be handed back to Iraq, and relations both in trade and diplomacy should be normalized and teh Israelis need to have their leash yanked before they start making more land grabs with the threat of nuclear strikes or total military support from the last super power on earth.

As well, teh rest of the planet should demand of all nuclear nations to cease and desist in teh production of such weapons and these same nations should start destroying all stockpiles of wmds as of yesterday.

By the way, The USA is the largest holder of weaponized biochem weapons on earth, nuclear weapons on earth and basically illegal weapons under pretty much every treaty and convention ever.

This makes them Hypocritical in their "war on terror" and they are just sellilng america out to the highest bidder at a cost to the american taxpayer.

Impeach Bush Now!

regards

[rogue]

Originally posted by MatT3T4
I wonder how much bloodshed will have to take place before Americans realize that we are going about this the wrong way...

We are fighting an enemy who is not afraid to die. We are fighting an enemy who sees it as heroic to die for the cause. Ask any American military person if they are ready to die in Iraq, and chances are, 99.9% of them will say absolutely not.

The way to end terrorism is not to keep flinging missiles and dropping bombs. It is not to occupy Muslim holy land, and try to spread Democracy, so that they can be a free people. Those who want to be free know where they can go. Those who want to live under Islamic law, and not be free...should be allowed to do so.

We need to pull our military forces out of the Middle East after the new Iraqi government is in place. We need to have a business/professional relationship with the Middle East, and that is all. There should not be any US or other soldiers there. If need be, we can launch attacks from far away...we don't need to be there. The reason that those god **** planes hit the WTC is because we are there.

How long will it take some of you to realize that this country is corrupt? Granted, I love living here, but god ****, we're no angels. America is guilty of so many horrible and dispicable acts in the name of [whatever they say at the time]. We've killed and displaces millions of Muslims, and it is time we stop.

I am not Muslim...as a matter of fact, I ****ing hate organized religion...but I do understand the plight of the Muslim in the Middle East, and I am fully aware of the atrocities that we have committed there. The only way to stop this threat under which we live, is to leave them alone.

We can still get our oil from them, but we can do it in a business-like way. Hell, we are the largest volume buyer of Middle Eastern oil in the world. That means that WE set the prices. We just don't want to do that. We'd rather just go in and conquer. This is barbaric. For the future of the world, we need leaders who understand that guns and bombs are NOT always the best way to solve your problem.

If Kerry gets elected, I bet bin Laden sends him a treaty too. If he is smart, he will take it. How many more 9-11's will it take for Americans to realize that it just isn't worth it? How many more of our relatives need to die in vain, in some ****ty sandhole, before we realize that we are going about this the wrong way?

The attitude of the common American sickens me. Always a bloodlust. Ridiculous...

I love this kind of talk on a forum dedicated to "martial" arts. Most of us here either believe that extreme violence can solve some problems or that violence can be a fun challenging past time. War really sucks but sometimes you have to do it, and when killing terrorists there really is no downside.

Now, I want you to remember that no son of a ***** ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor son of a ***** die for his country"
-Gen. George S. Patton Jr.

Bravery without intelligence is little more then suicide!
-General. Robert E. Lee

[rogue]

scr.ew over of the palestinians

KL, the only one to scr.ew the Palestinians are the Palestinians by keeping Yassar around. The guy should have been retired to playing Ringo in a Beatles tribute band 10 years ago.

[David Jamieson]

rogue-

I agree, arafat should have stepped down long ago. too much bad blood there for him to be even halfway effective and he is a toterring old screwball left over from the 40's.

But, the same could be said for Sharon too. He was a Mossad guy with a bad rep on the battle field and towards palestinian civs from way back as well.

Anyway, Kissinger is the one who really screwed things up with the israelis and the palestinians during the Nixon government.

He literally played both sides of the coin, let it go to the point where Israel was at the point of being defeated by egypt, and then a couple of things happened.

Sadat pulled back and the Americans sent Israel an "aid" package of brand spanking new military goodies, tanks, plains, you name it, they got it.

Luckily, it was on the promise of chilling.

Meanwhile, the palestinians at that time, 1967, had moved out of their lands to make way for the continuing war that didn't happen. In their place stood only the Israeli military. Who did not let them return to their lands and it has been disputed ever since.

It would have been a fairly simple act to just let them have it back and try to iron it out, but by that time there was a lot of hating going on.

now, all these same haters are still playing hate on each other and they are all just 40 years older.

Everything else aside for a moment, it is the Israel and Palestine issue that must be addressed. It is the corruption of the Saudi royal family that bin Laden has the major beef with, along with the syrians.

Baically, all these "royal" families in the middle east were just bedouin warlords who happened to help out the british before and during WW2.

They were all installed by the Allied powers at the end of the war, new nations and emirates were created as shipping bases for oil for the western world and things haven't changed since.

There are too many old men salting old wounds in the world and it is totally messing up the planet and the prospects of peace.

We'd be better off getting that hydrogen fuel cell technology mass produced, find abundant and renewable alternative sources of energy such as vegetable based oils and alcohols, install the hydrogen infrastructure and let the arabs go back to being bedouins.

The people that have a problem with that are the oil and power players in the west and the opec players in the middle-east.

so, we have to wait at least another generation and by that time, it mat well be too late for all of us. sounds bleek, but that is the road we're on.

Prior to the end of WW2, Jews and arabs lived quite peacefully together throughout what was then palestine. No one is saying that Israel shouldn't exist, people just wanted their dang farms and livelihoods back and weren't expecting to live in refugee camps for the rest of their lives as is the case. How crappy of an existance is that?

well, Bush just writes it off as a "new" reality. Bush needs a history lesson I think or medication for alzheimers or something, I don't know, but he sure is a fricking idiot of the highest order in my books to be pulling that shi.t he did with Sharon a couple of days ago.

[YinYangDagger]

kill'em all

[David Jamieson]

That is the exact attitude that bin laden and his ilk holds yyd.

I fail to see why you would hold the same view if you do indeed live in a "superior" society.

if there is anything that is evident, it is that violence begets violence.

And with Bush harping on and on about faith based this and that, christian this and that, god bless us this and that, you would THINK he would know that. It was a primary lesson of his saviour and lord after all.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. was the main theme. Would you have others occupy your lands, kill your innocent civilians? mess with your economy? and not just for a little while, but for a long long time.

The hypocricy of it all is quite stunning. And you, the american taxpayer are paying for it. meanwhile you can't get over your internal economic problems, your homeless problem, your ghetto problems, your drug problems etc etc etc. And you think "kill em all" is the way?

methinks you need to smell some coffee son. or maybe talk to some of the guys who are coming back from iraq. might change your tune a bit to hear it from the soldiers who just put in their 12 months of hell.

capice?

[YinYangDagger]

was there the first time (1990-1991), shoulda killed'em all then

[David Jamieson]

perhaps we would have benefitted if you had lost your ability to type?

not funny yyd, but is reflective of your lack of grey matter.

well, you're officially just another idiot here.

[YinYangDagger]

tsk, tsk, you wear your politics on your sleave...

Geez, get over it, you live in the BEST country, obviously Canada, why all the America bashing?

I served and am proud of it, I keep my personal opinions to myself, like the idiot I am (this is where you confirm my idiocy).

Drink a "humor" soda or something, don't take everything so personal. Breathe in...breathe out...count to 10...

[MatT3T4]

Originally posted by rogue


I love this kind of talk on a forum dedicated to "martial" arts. Most of us here either believe that extreme violence can solve some problems or that violence can be a fun challenging past time. War really sucks but sometimes you have to do it, and when killing terrorists there really is no downside.

I don't think you understand the consequences here. War has nothing to do with martial arts. The battlefield has changed somewhat, over the past 2,000 years. Martial arts is great if you have one, or a few adversaries in your face...but when it is on a world scale, sometimes it's not worth the ego boost.

[Ultimatewingchun]

In the end - no matter how long it takes...Bin Laden and the rest of Al Quaeda will be hunted down like dogs in the street and killed...it could take years...might even happen after a HUGE war...

But it WILL happen !!!

Because he's an ANIMAL...who is attemting to hi-jack one of the world's great religions and turn it into a breeding ground of DEVILISH VERMIN AND FILTH...

Let's not ever forget that he cowardly hides in caves - while brainwashing others into the committing acts of MASS MURDER and SUICIDE....

These people...their souls won't be rewarded in Paradise By Allah after committing such atrocities - they will spend an eternity in hell for their sins...

and Osama Bin laden will receive the ultimate punishment...HIS SOUL WILL BE PERMANENTLY ANNIHILATED BY THE WILL OF ALLAH ...(GOD)...(JEHOVAH)...(THE ABSOLUTE)...(THE SUPREME SPIRIT)...

whatever words you choose to use to describe the ULTIMATE POWER in the Universe....the cause and source of all that is, was, or ever shall be.

Does this mean that the United States doesn't have a price to pay fot it's transgressions?...and of course I mean U.S. citizens both INDIVIDUALLY and COLLECTIVELY...meaning...the lust by some for power and (OIL) wealth...

Sure...the U.S. (and others) will pay a price.

But in the end...HUMANITY'S EVOLUTION...as decreed and WILLED by GOD...ALLAH...etc.

This evolutionary intent will dictate that the U.S. and it's Allies will ultimately triumph over this ANIMAL...The same way it triumphed over the last animal that raised it's beastly and blood-thirsty head...Hitler.

STAY BRAVE AND NEVER GIVE IN TO BLACKMAIL OR TERRORISM.

[Mr Punch]

Did somebody call?!

[Merryprankster]

If you would like some actual knowledge about radical Islam and AQ and Bin Laden, please see "Inside Al Qaeda" by Rohan Gunaratna. For you America haters, please note that he is not from the U.S., but is Sri Lankan. He came by his interest in terrorism by way of the LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) - a Sri Lankan terrorist organization (distinct from freedom fighters, for those of you who somehow subscribe to the idea that these two terms are interchangeable, depending on perspective) - which, btw, hates his guts. It covers AQ evolution from its foundation as the Afghan Service Bureau (MAK) through the actual formation of "The Base" (AQ), all the way to the present day. Dr. Gunaratna has interviewed MANY AQ members both in the field and in custody, and has had access to a wide variety of people and information from countries around the world. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept of "research," what this means is that his sources are heavily primary. That's considered a good thing.

i'm not going to type in with capitals anymore because it's hurting my shoulder.

2nd, the current state of affairs in these parts of the world is largely due to the dissolution of european empires. they came, they saw, they conquered, they drew arbitrary or intentionally divisive lines in the sand ignoring or purposefully separating ethnic, tribal or religious groups, raped the areas for resources under a mercantilist or pseudo-mercantilist relationship which restricted trade and thus wealth generation, failed to educate the populace or develop any infrastructure, and left once they were over extended. we are now reaping the benefits of this situation - a generally poor, uneducated and perhaps most importantly, embarressed populace which resents the success of the judeo-christian world, while they, by contrast have not had the same measure of success. the islamic world's previous status as the envy of the west only hieghtens this sense of social disenfranchisement.

some may argue that increased generosity and more "friendly" policies would avert or change this track. there are several forces which counterbalance this very nice idea. one is that the ideological development of islam in many (read, most) places in the parallels the development of confucian china--no outside ideas are worth looking into and outsiders are second-class. this is as stultifying an attitude as can be, resulting in a stagnant society on all fronts.

another is that islam is not just a spiritual system. it is also a political and economic one. this makes it inherently less adaptable - religious truths cannot be compromised so the framework is stiffer; social, political and economic change is much harder to create and absorb.

another, and the final one i will address here, is the strong fatalistic component of islam as it is practiced in many places. free will isn't really much of a concept; this deadens the impetus for personal change. "Inshallah" or "God willing" is a ubiquitous phrase ie "i have a small store, and we do not have much money, but perhaps next year will be better, God willing." putting your life in the hands of allah may soothe your soul, but it makes you a leaf in the current of his will.

this is not to say that the islamic world cannot evolve or modernize, after all, europe overcame the effects of the catholic church - rather, it merely demonstrates the difficulties. some places have a very moderate islamic populace overall, including turkey, indonesia, malaysia and several of the north african countries. there are also many islamic scholars who believe that consensus and analogy provide the means to modernize. most of them live in europe and are not highly regarded by influential middle eastern clerics. their message is lost.

the history and development of islam, coupled with europeans screwing with them over makes many people very receptive to radical messages, including UBL's "us against them" or Salafist type "the islamic world has lost its glory because we have lost the path and must return to the 8th century ways (!) to get it back."

in other words, it doesn't matter what the United States or the western world does. this is a conflict of ideology, not of policy. this is why you can't negotiate with these organizations because they are, in essence, dedicated to the eradication of any ideology that is not their own. the truce UBL offered parts of europe? please, its only good until he perceives some slight against islam, be it a law like the ridiculous french one re: headpieces, or support/outreach to a regime in the islamic world that he considers apostate. they don't want to be left alone; they want to win; they are apocalyptic - they believe that through their actions they will bring about "end times," ie, a single islamic house. why do you think that UBL and ayman al-zawahiri's tapes are laced with messages for the people of the United States and the west to repent and turn towards Islam, and they will be spared?

any attempt to equate a western state w/terrorist organizations is ridiculous. you may not agree with certain military actions, but there is a genuine concern for loss of life, civilian casualties and preservation of infrastructure. sometimes, these "collateral damages" to use the phrase, happen anyway, but it's not because people are intentionally causing them. i am certain that a few were, in essence, murdered - this does happen during war. i wish it would not, but it does.

an attempt to cast the United States in the role of ever present bad guy is absurd. the history of this nation is a mixed bag, like any other. There are good things and bad things - great acts of humanity and questionable or outright unjustifiable acts of depravity. trying to behave or believe otherwise is to outright deny history. if a person is that willfully obtuse, nothing can help them.

[rogue]

Merry, that about sums it up.

As I see it, AQ has to be totally destroyed (as in it's members either dead or locked away somewhere remote and kept isolated) and/or kept on the run and non-functioning. I have family in Spain and there is a pride that they kicked the Moors out. This has never sat well with the world of Islam.

[red5angel]

be careful MP, by making sense you make yourself the target for attacks by some of the more idiotic members of this forum.

Hey Kung Lek, remember that secret technique I was telling you about yesterday "List in ying" in chinese or in english - paying attention. you shoudl do that now, maybe read MP's post a few times and some common sense and logic might just sink in to that thick, cold bain of yours.