Bin Ladens latest speech

[PaulH]

Excellent post, MP. I am in agreement that this is more for the most parts an ideological struggle and should be treated more as such accordingly. Unfortunately as those barbaric and hate-consumed terrorists who stop at nothing to destroy the West completely, the only sane option available is the unpopular pre-emptive strike approach that might offer a glimpse of hope for survival as the Western Civilization comes to its long overdue decadent end.

Regards,
PH

[Merryprankster]

Paul H,

in the short term, violence IS the solution. an enemy on the run cannot coordinate attacks.

i know "what about the spain bombings?" that's the common (and ignorant) response. there is a tendency to lump islamic extremists under AQ. this is not true. AQ methods are popular with islamic terrorists worldwide and many groups receive AQ training or are affiliated. this is different than being AQ, and having AQ leadership directly involved in planning your operation, funding, etc.

the GSPC, a couple of tunisian and morrocan groups are pervasive throughout europe and in 2003, Nabil Sahraoui, after becoming the GSPC leader, declared the group's allegiance with al-Qaeda in September. Sahraoui ousted longtime leader Hassan Hattab who had a domestic, but not international agenda. the salafists have been able to plan and execute their own attacks for quite some time.

the spain attackers, my guess is, are under the aq umbrella but it wasn't planned by the bigwigs.

in the long run, the cure is continuing globalization. people like to talk about it as a tremendous social ill, but it is the most powerful freedom dispensing machine on the planet. if you are for human rights, you're for globalization on the whole. might not like certain specifics, but on the whole, you must support it as the carrier of the value of human life.

[ZIM]

Good post, MP. You need a web page for this stuff!

WRT the OBL threat- I'm personally more interested in whatever intel can be gathered from it than in arguing over the 'merits' [pish!].

He was saying '3 months'- that places the time frame to mid-July, two weeks after sovereignty is handed over. What are they coordinating now?

IIRC, the US DNC & RNC conventions take place in August? There is likely to be some intention to influence those through attacks.

We don't hear enough from the Iraqis themselves, mostly getting only distorted message-pushing from the media. I just found a link for a survey of commentary. Not so bad!

[jun_erh]

kl- if it weren't for the US, Sharon and Israel would have bulldozed "palestine" along time ago. I used to be anti-israel, but Arafat (a dictator) doesn't want peace. They've offered it to him year after year. So why not just pull out of the west bank and Israel anyway? Well then there's the "right of return". Plus. more cycnically, the whle predicament itself is a great recruiting to for terrorists, who themselves are deeply involved in narco trafficking. So it's no simple.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not anti-Israel either...but I am against a BLATANT LAND-GRAB by Sharon's right-wing gov't - now backed by Bush....

Big Mistake...Palestinians have been living there for 1,000 years...the only true fair and just solution is ALL of the West Bank and Gaza and HALF of Jerusalem must be the Palestinian State...and in return - Israel is guaranteed no more opposition to it's right to exist...in other words...a return to pre-1967 borders...

The fact that right-wing Israeli's have "created facts on the ground" by stealing the land and turning it into settlements for some 200,000 settlers DOES NOT HAVE TO BE TOLERATED....AND CAN BE REVERSED...

We need an American president to tell the right-wingers that without such a fair compromise as this....U.S. financial,diplomatic, and military aid will be slowly BUT SURELY phased out.

That would do the trick...the Israeli electorate would get the message...and vote in a more moderate leader...

But so far...no U.S. prseident has had the balls to do this...afraid of the American-Jewish lobby...but he should just face down the false charges of being an anti-semite...hold the course - and get it done.

This would go a long way toward waging a TWO-PRONGED ATTACK against the fanatical Islamic extremists....both FORCE....and a JUST DIPLOMACY.

[rogue]

MP, good book recomendation. I picked up Inside Al Qaeda during lunch and have made a good dent in it already. Have you ever read Bin Laden, The Man Who Declared War on America by Yossef Bodansky? Good book and interesting as it was written around 1999.

Ultimatewingchun, sadly for the Palestinians they're considered a half step above trash by their so-called Arab brothers. They're not wanted by anybody over there except the Saudis who need someone to clean their cesspools. Notice how no Arab country has ever gone to war for them?

The Arabic satellite TV station al-Jazeera has broadcast a message it says it believes is from Osama Bin Laden.
This is the full text of the statement:
In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, a message to the American people:

Peace be upon those who follow the right path. I am an honest adviser to you. I urge you to seek the joy of life and the afterlife and to rid yourself of your dry, miserable and spiritless materialistic life.

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" The aggressor deserves punishment "
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I urge you to become Muslims, for Islam calls for the principle of "there is no god but Allah", and for justice and forbids injustice and criminality.

I also call on you to understand the lesson of the New York and Washington raids, which came in response to some of your previous crimes.

The aggressor deserves punishment.

However, those who follow the movement of the criminal gang at the White House, the agents of the Jews, who are preparing to attack and partition the Islamic world, without you disapproving of this, realise that you have not understood anything from the message of the two raids.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" The youth of Islam are preparing things that will fill your hearts with fear "
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Therefore, I am telling you, and God is my witness, whether America escalates or de-escalates this conflict, we will reply to it in kind, God willing.

God is my witness, the youth of Islam are preparing things that will fill your hearts with fear.

They will target key sectors of your economy until you stop your injustice and aggression or until the more short-lived of us die.

We beseech Almighty God to provide us with His support.

He is the protector and has the power to do so.

Say: O people of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves lords and patrons other than Allah.

If then they turn back, say ye: Bear witness that we at least are Muslims bowing to Allah's will (Koranic verse).

I'll pass.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rogue:

As I said earlier...the man is really an ANIMAL...and part of that animal-ness is that he's cunning like a fox...

READ BEHIND AND BETWEEN THE LINES...of this last Bin Laden quote - that to "some" might appear logical and noble...but underneath are threats to continue hiding in caves while he sends out his HYPNOTIZED true believers to make sure everyone believes as they do or be subjected to MASS MURDER...men, women, and children...indescriminately.

He's trying DESPARATELY to plant THOUGHTS OF FEAR in the hearts and minds of ALL non-extremist Islamic Fundamentalist radicals...

in other words...his ambition is to take over THE WHOLE WORLD...and the ANIMAL (HITLER-ESQUE) message ?

Become like us...and accept WHAT I SAY AS IF IT WERE THE WORD OF GOD (ALLAH)...

OR DIE!

F#CK HIM....

He'll be annihilated...and those who follow him will die horrible deaths followed by an eternity in hell for their sins against Allah (God)...and against Humanity.

[Merryprankster]

Good post, MP. You need a web page for this stuff!

no. i'd have to listen to the kung leks of the world sputter inanities.

[ZIM]

It can be fun, you know and you're in the right neighborhood.

[Kristoffer]

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed011504b.cfm

[Nick Forrer]

‘The current state of affairs in these parts of the world is largely due to the dissolution of european empires. they came, they saw, they conquered, they drew arbitrary or intentionally divisive lines in the sand ignoring or purposefully separating ethnic, tribal or religious groups, raped the areas for resources under a mercantilist or pseudo-mercantilist relationship which restricted trade and thus wealth generation, failed to educate the populace or develop any infrastructure, and left once they were over extended. we are now reaping the benefits of this situation - a generally poor, uneducated and perhaps most importantly, embarressed populace which resents the success of the judeo-christian world, while they, by contrast have not had the same measure of success. the islamic world's previous status as the envy of the west only hieghtens this sense of social disenfranchisement.’


This is undoubtedly correct (except for the statement that they failed to educate the populace or develop ANY infrastructure, a statement which, frankly, stands in need of revision). However it is a geopolitical framework which has been willingly adopted and maintained by successive post war US administrations. They may have tinkered around the edges a bit but the same fundamentally exploitative relationships still exist- its just that this time it is the US who are ‘reaping the benefits’. Just look at the suez canal crisis- England invades Egypt because Nasser nationalises a strategic financial asset but has to withdraw when the US puts its foot down and effectively says to them ‘we run the show now- you can keep the crumbs but the main meal is ours’. Moreover so called international institutions like the IMF and the world bank are simply the means by which the US perpetuates its long standing global hegemony, the essence of which is 'free trade is okay for you but not for me’ so while its fine for the US to adopt protectionist economic measures such as the provision of large subsidies to domestic industries and the levying of tariffs on imports, any third world country that attempts to do the same is immediately subject to a whole raft of coercive measures, some more obvious than others. If you want an example of the blatant hypocrisy at work here just look at the recent steel debacle – one minute Bush is preaching free trade in central America the next minute he is putting debilitating tariffs on European steel imports in what can only be described as a highly cynical piece of electioneering. Of course when the EU bans American GE imports on safety grounds the tune changes completely- the EU is condemned for being ‘unscientific’ (this coming from a man who says he is undecided on the question of creationism vs. evolution ).

’some may argue that increased generosity and more "friendly" policies would avert or change this track. there are several forces which counterbalance this very nice idea. one is that the ideological development of islam in many (read, most) places in the parallels the development of confucian china--no outside ideas are worth looking into and outsiders are second-class. this is as stultifying an attitude as can be, resulting in a stagnant society on all fronts.’

On e could argue that free market capitalism is just as ideologically entrenched in the west and that people are just as blinkered to other cultures, viewpoints and modes of living. I mean how many genuine alternatives to free market capitalism are offered in mainstream US politics?
To say you’re a communist in some places is to put yourself practically on a par with being a child molester. Instead the only thing that really separates democrats and republicans in ideological terms are certain business neutral issues, that is to say issues which constitute no real threat to corporate profit margins, like abortion, death penalty, gay rights etc.

Even when someone slightly radical like Ralph Nader runs for office he is condemned for splitting the democrat vote, the hidden premise being that democratic choice means nothing more than choosing between two equally bland corporate drones. Of course the same phenomenon can be observed in Britain with both of the main political parties desperately trying to out do each other in the race for industrial patronage, to be the darling of big business- Tony Blair proudly announcing (like a child that has just learnt to go to the toilet on their own) that he ‘has no ideology’ and that there can be no return to the nationalisation of industry .

That said while lip service is paid to the idea of the free market if the US were to actually follow the kind of free market policies advocated in some of its economics departments their economy would collapse almost overnight. This is well understand by policy makers if not always openly acknowledged. They did for a time in the 1920’s and the result was the stock market crash and the great depression. They only got themselves out of it through Roosevelt’s ‘new deal’ i.e. a massive program of widespread state spending and protectionism of exactly the kind that free marketers are supposed to be against.
Other countries who have followed this line recently are Argentina and Thailand. In both countries there has been an economic boom followed by a massive economic bust.

’another, and the final one i will address here, is the strong fatalistic component of islam as it is practiced in many places. free will isn't really much of a concept; this deadens the impetus for personal change. "Inshallah" or "God willing" is a ubiquitous phrase ie "i have a small store, and we do not have much money, but perhaps next year will be better, God willing." putting your life in the hands of allah may soothe your soul, but it makes you a leaf in the current of his will.’

I don’t see that this kind of fatalism distinguishes Islamic societies from any other kind. Look at the (in retrospect ridiculous) hysteria in the run up to the millennium.

’this is not to say that the islamic world cannot evolve or modernize, after all, europe overcame the effects of the catholic church - rather, it merely demonstrates the difficulties. some places have a very moderate islamic populace overall, including turkey, indonesia, malaysia and several of the north african countries. there are also many islamic scholars who believe that consensus and analogy provide the means to modernize. most of them live in europe and are not highly regarded by influential middle eastern clerics. their message is lost.’

No the message is not lost- THE ISLAMIC PEOPLE JUST HAVE TROUBLE HEARING IT OVER THE DIN OF THE BOMBS BEING DROPPED ON THEIR CHILDREN. They want the same thing that everyone wants- to be left in peace to live their lives the way they want to- but as long as America is dependant on middle eastern oil they will have to continue to live under the yoke of brutal corrupt regimes armed funded and supported by the west. Hence the support for religious extremists- when you feel under threat you naturally gravitate towards the person who says they will fight it- indeed it is that fact of human psychology that the Bush election team will be banking on in the coming election.

'Any attempt to equate a western state w/terrorist organizations is ridiculous. you may not agree with certain military actions, but there is a genuine concern for loss of life, civilian casualties and preservation of infrastructure. sometimes, these "collateral damages" to use the phrase, happen anyway, but it's not because people are intentionally causing them. i am certain that a few were, in essence, murdered - this does happen during war. i wish it would not, but it does.'

The English legal system (I cant speak for the American one) makes an important and useful distinction between direct and indirect intention when considering the mens rea of a defendant charged with murder (i.e. their mental state at the time of the act). You directly intend to murder someone if your purpose in acting is to bring their death about. You indirectly intend to murder someone if your purpose in acting is not to bring about their death per se but that it was virtually certain to result from your actions anyway and you either foresaw that this would be the case or should by any rational standard have foreseen that this would be the case. On this basis then I think its fair to say that every time a state goes to war it indirectly intends to kill innocent people and that this is far closer both morally and legally to directly intedning to kill innocent people rather than unintentionally killing innocent people. Just To be clear- knowing the identity of your victim beforehand is unimportant- Mohammed atta by no means knew the identity of the people of in the WTC but he is still guilty (posthumously) of their murder.

Further, just take a closer look at some examples of US foreign policy over the last 50 years. During the Vietnam war american forces committed many atrocities
For example:
-in 1968 William Calley's 'charlie company' massacred over 200 vietnamese villagers including women and children in what is now known as the 'My Lai' massacre.
-in 1971 during 'operation speedy express' the 'glorious ninth' killed around 5000 civilians in a 'pacification' campaign.

In total around 3 million people were killed from 1962 to 1970. If you add the million or so people that were killed in Cambodia from 1970 to 1975 when the US was bombing it and then from 1975-78 when pol pot was in power, made possible by the earlier US bombing, that makes around 4 million people killed in Indochina as a result of US foreign policy in the region.

[Nick Forrer]

Or look at Gulf war 1
During this American forces:
-bombed the Al Amiriya bunker in Baghdad. Around 400 women and children were burnt to death.
-dropped rockets, napalm and cluster bombs on a retreating, defenceless convoy (which inluded many civilians) on the Basra road.
- buried thousands of Iraqi soldiers alive in their trenches using bulldozers.
- Dropped around 88,500 tons of bombs in total on Iraq - the equivalent of more then seven Hiroshima’s.
- Killed in excess of 200,000 civilians (source: Medical educational trust).

Then following the gulf war

In 1991- The Bush administration actively encouraged the Shia's to rise up against Saddam. They then abandoned them because of fears that toppling Saddam would destabilise the region and strengthen the hand of Iran. State department official Thomas Friedman said in The NY times that 'the best of all worlds would be an iron fisted Iraqi junta.’

Since then US sponsored sanctions have been responsible for the deaths of more than 500,000 iraqi civilians, most of them children. Madeleine Albright (then US ambassador to the UN and later secretary of state under the Clinton admin.) didn't deny this. Instead she said it was an 'acceptable price to pay'.

'An attempt to cast the United States in the role of ever present bad guy is absurd. the history of this nation is a mixed bag, like any other. There are good things and bad things - great acts of humanity and questionable or outright unjustifiable acts of depravity. trying to behave or believe otherwise is to outright deny history. if a person is that willfully obtuse, nothing can help them.'

I agree 100%

[YinYangDagger]

"No the message is not lost- THE ISLAMIC PEOPLE JUST HAVE TROUBLE HEARING IT OVER THE DIN OF THE BOMBS BEING DROPPED ON THEIR CHILDREN. They want the same thing that everyone wants- to be left in peace to live their lives the way they want to- but as long as America is dependant on middle eastern oil they will have to continue to live under the yoke of brutal corrupt regimes armed funded and supported by the west. Hence the support for religious extremists- when you feel under threat you naturally gravitate towards the person who says they will fight it- indeed it is that fact of human psychology that the Bush election team will be banking on in the coming election"

What a PILE of liberal Bullsh!t !

Read the other posts AGAIN. If WE DO NOT CONFORM TO ISLAMIC VALUES THEN WE ARE THE ENEMY, PERIOD.

I'm not, NOR EVER, will be Islamic.

-bombed the Al Amiriya bunker in Baghdad. Around 400 women and children were burnt to death. BECAUSE THE COWARDS OF ALLAH ROUTINELY USE CIVILIANS AS SHIELDS.

-dropped rockets, napalm and cluster bombs on a retreating, defenceless convoy (which inluded many civilians) on the Basra road. MORE LIBERAL BS, THE IRAQI SOLDIERS DRESSED AS CIVILIANS TO BLEND IN - THE REST, CASUALTIES OF WAR.

- Dropped around 88,500 tons of bombs in total on Iraq - the equivalent of more then seven Hiroshima’s. SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE

- buried thousands of Iraqi soldiers alive in their trenches using bulldozers. BETTER THAT THAN HAVE THEM SNEAK UP ON A CONVOY THEN HAVE PRISONERS TO TORTURE.

At least there's ONE smart and brave Englishmen - The Honorable Mr. Blair.

Do all your little name calling now. Flame away. I'm an American, and like many more, I'm PROUD to be.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not going to defend what has lead up to the present state of affairs - as regards U.S. imperialist designs/the excesses of the corporate capitalist state/ the banking, encouragement, and weapons given to Saddam Hussein...having no problem whatsoever with his attack on the Fundamentalist regime in Iran/the decades we were in bed with the brutal and corrupt Shah of Iran/the unholy alliance between the house of Saud and the house of Bush (it's about Oil...stupid)... the blank check both literally and figuratively we've given right-wing governments in Israel...who have abused and denied the Palistinians their basic human rights while stealing so much of their land...

the list of mistakes by the U.S./Britain/France and others is very long...and let's not forget the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan...a blatant land-grab war of aggression - wherein we actually gave arms and support to the muhajadeen...the future Taliban, and Osama Bin Laden himself...to fight off the Russians.

WE CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST...

WE CAN ONLY HOPE TO HAVE A BETTER FUTURE...which will FIRST mean having to fight a two-pronged war...against the terrorist fundamentalists - with Al Quaeda and Bin Laden at the top of the list...against Iran (possibly) if they REALLY DO attempt to acquire nuclear weapons, etc...

and a DIPLOMATIC WAR OF PUBLIC RELATIONS...not "tricks", B.S. and slick, meaningless marketing campaigns...but real "actions"...facts on the ground that DEMONSTRATE good-will (building hospitals, schools, roads, infrastructure in Iraq...reversing the decision in the last few days to back the PIG named Sharon who wants to permanently steal a major part of the West Bank)...

but most of all...engaging the rest of the International Community (the U.N. - for starters)...in a REAL PARTNERSHIP in Iraq...we will supply the security - they will attempt to set up a legitimate government...not U.S. handpicked yes-men...

George W. Bush will NEVER do ANY of these things...he - and those closest to him...are too CORRUPT for that...Nader couldn't get elected dog-catcher...

SO IT HAS TO KERRY...

Regardless of his centrist positions - he still has spoken out MANY TIMES DURING HIS CAREER...against not only dependence upon foreign oil...but AGAINST OIL ITSELF...he's for alternative energy sources...

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL...because our interest in Mid-East oil is the CAUSE AND SOURCE of almost all our mistakes and corrupt policies...

IF....IF...IF...Kerry means what he says - then there's a chance that his election will start to move the U.S in the right direction.

But again I want to remind you folks...as regards foreign threats...

IT'S ABOUT BIN LADEN, STUPID.

He and his organization have to be DESTROYED.

[rogue]

"We will all die one day. Nothing will change. If by Apache or by cardiac arrest, I prefer Apache,"
Lucky guy, he got his wish. I guess it's time to be outraged that the head of the group strapping bombs on kids got some radical body work done to his car with him in it.

I think the way countries who are under immediate threat from terrorism has changed. It's no longer bring them to trial and jail them it's now hunt down and kill the leaders. If another leader pops up kill him too. Eventually the implied willingness to sacrife oneself for their ideal (Islamism, Communism, racial purity) will no longer have the appeal it now does.