Self Defense falls flat.

[rogue]

After 18 months a friend of mine closed his self defense classes. High demand from non-martialartist, high demand from the TKD school he rented the space from. Demand doesn't seem to translate into motivation though. The non-martial arts crowd were looking for a quick fix that they could do maybe once a month. The TKD folks didn't seem to like the close quarters or intensity. Good learning experience, got to work with some good people and learned somethings about people in regards to self defense and martial arts.

Anybody else been a part of a self defense only school?

[joedoe]

Could he have tailored the curriculum to accommodate the non-MA once-a-month crowd? I mean, training SD principles once a month is better than none at all.

As for the TKD people, what can you do?

[YinYangDagger]

I lived up in New York and went to a very popular self-defense only school. He has since moved to WV.

Learned a lot of hard core stuff the year I lived out on Long Island.

his website: www.americancombatives.com

[Gangsterfist]

Kravmaga is very combat oriented all self defense. No forms or katas all combat and hands on. At least that is what I have read about it.

Depends on your own personal goals. I might consider taking one of those classes like once a month or so to brush up on some skills or maybe gain a few new attributes here and there.

[rogue]

Could he have tailored the curriculum to accommodate the non-MA once-a-month crowd?

Tried that when he added CDT to the schedule. But that too takes time and effort to master. Also the entire pain complience aspect got to some people, both MA and non-MA. We'd get a good response, have a good seminar but then attendence would drift off.
I chalk it up to expectations, comfort zone and goals. Students had an expectation that they'd learn how to defend themselves without having to take a martial art, the reality is to get passable you have to put in as much work as you would in any other martial art. Most of the TKD people, we did have karate, boxers and others also, felt good about their art and their abilities. It rankled some of them when a non-MA could be taught to catch their kicks, take them down and get them into a leg lock. We had a few guys from the spec ops community come in to guest teach from time to time. They'd explain what fighting was really like and what to expect , they noticed that some of the students were stunned and mentally unprepared.
I think having goals is a big factor for keeping a student. We really were training for something that you don't really want to happen.

[SevenStar]

GF, the krav maga thing is iffy, especially considering how commercial the style is now. I've heard that alot of krav maga is basically a cardio kickboxing class. The one in my city (from what I hear) is more thai boxing oriented. With things like 9/11 occurring, self defense is the new fad, and women recognize it because of j lo's movie "enough", in which she trained it.

My longfist school had a self defense class, but it was a flop. There was no interest in it.

Rogue, are there any women's only gyms in his area? A buddy and I did a self defense seminar some years ago at a women's only gym - they loved it. They wanted us to come back and teach classes, but neither of us had any free time - we weren't expecting them to ask to have us back.

[rogue]

7*, doing self defense seminars is how he got the idea that a self defense school might work. He got the same response as you and your friend and figured that people could practice several times a week. I think people really need a goal when doing martial arts, a belt, placing in a competition, search for knowlege or anything else to keep the person moving forward. The motivation for self defense are usually something negative and once that negative mover fades why continue. The best method that I've seen was my JJ teacher. He taught JJ as pure self defense until you got past white belt (6 months to a year), after that it was more and more JJ. This way the people who just wanted SD learned some practical skills that they could really use, those that wanted more could continue.

[Ludeviews]

I've noticed this also where I train with the syllabus changing slightly to cater more for the masses.

Before the training was more hardcore but soon most of the students started dropping out and the classes got too small to stay afloat but it was great training because everyone was there for the same thing.

Nowadays classes are generally done with less energy and less contact, basically as someone pointed out within peoples comfort zone.

I think some people WANT to train and some want to TRAIN.

Its a shame but its life I guess!

[Ford Prefect]

I've gone to clinics here where they try to simulate self defense situation similar to the RMCAT training philosphy. They try to get you into an adrenaline dump and teach self defense stuff against a fully armored trainer. I just go because I love beating the ever loving **** out of some poor ******* in that suit. It's good practice because he just comes screaming at you like a regular dude throwing haymakers and being aggressive.

[MightyB]

I'm not a huge fan of teaching martial arts as self defense anyway. I question the motives of the people teaching it and the people studying it for SD.

Look at it from an unbiased viewpoint... wouldn't you think it would be odd for somebody to run around in the woods with a semi automatic rifle in an attempt to prepare for WWIII Armegeddon? Seriously, you'd think that the person was a nut. That's what I think about when I hear of people studying MA for self defense.

Can MA be used for self defense? That's debatable. It may help, emphasizing "may" since most attackers use guns and knives, or they attack in groups. Plus, they seriously want to f-you up, and I doubt anybody can teach you to be prepared for that.

[red5angel]

here's my take on self defense and classes geared towards it - 99% of them suck a$$.
Most are way too short, quick fixes designed to give the students false confidence. A few hours of training will not make you capable of doing anything you couldnt' do before you walked in. I drill and train for hours to get a technique down so it works smoothly, some of the time. I train throughout the year so that my techniques will hopefully work in a bad situation. To stick someone in a class for a couple of weeks, then send them out full of all that crap they barely know how to use effectively, that's just trying to get someone killed in my opinion.

Now, I've never heard of a place that provides ongoing self defense classes in general. A few places market themselves out as having self defense classes, but again, more often then not those calsses are short cuts, and those instructors are just implementing them to make a few more bucks.

Everyone who has ever come to me to ask for a recommendation for a self defense class, I say take a martial arts class, get your black belt or get a license to carry.

even in some professions I think the so called self defense or combative skills are way underrated and under trained. I have two freinds going to school to be cops and I am gently encouraging them to take some martial arts courses on a regular basis, something "simple" like Kali, Wing Chun, or other arts that work well for close quarters, and some grappling as well. I certainly didn't get a whole lot of actual close combat training in the USMC that didn't involve pulling the trigger.

[Ford Prefect]

Red,

You're reasons for why you think they are bad is why I think they are good. Giving people the confidence that they can handle themselves if it get's physical is half the game right there. Acting with confidence and conviction is certainly a good way to avoid the "predator" types on the streets. They are looking for the easy kill, not a fight.

Also, the classes I've seen teach violence of action. Once it's shown that only violence will spring you, then it's an all out agressive attack that doesn't stop until you clear a way to run or the attacker is on the ground. It helps build people's confidence and strip away their inhibitions associated with violence.

Of course there's also the de-escalation techniques that are taught for bar barking sessions. IMO, these things not only leave somebody far more capable to survive an encounter, but they also help ensure that the person won't ever be in one.

[red5angel]

In my opinion true self defense should focus on teaching how to avoid situations where you might find trouble period. Staying away from dark streets in bad neighborhoods, getting an escort to parking garages, that sort of thing, it's more about education then actual technique.

[YinYangDagger]

Ford - agreed.

Red - There are actually some methods that can be taught in a relative short time that will prduce maximum results. A lot of the methods I'm referring to were taught to the Marine Raiders / British Commandos that didn't have years to develop hand-to-hand skills before imparting to fight the Germans and Japanese during WW2. Some of these unarmed methods actually killed the enemy during close combat, as documented in Department of Defense files, Colonel Applegates' notes, as well as Fairbairn's first-hand knowledge. Plus, as Ford pointed out, sometimes having the confidence, and not having the "I'm a victim" mentallity can help you out in crunch time.

[YinYangDagger]

Oh, and Red, I agree with your last post 100%. Better to not give the opportunity to start with.