Awww $hit

[red5angel]

I'm going to calm down here for just a second captainpickaxe, I sense some reasonableness within you, the light side of the force...


I'm not saying you can't speak yourmind, or feel a certain way. I'
m not even saying you can't disagree with your government. Believe it or not, I'm not even saying you can't go against some of the things your government does, like the draft for instance. I am saying that running off to canada doesn't do anyone but yourself any good, period. sure you risk going to jail, but so did Rosa Parks, and Nelson Mandela did, but the point is he stood up for what he believed, they took their stand, planted their feet and said, I love my nation, but things need to change and by god I'm here to change them.
If you don't like the draft you don't accept it ( I don't think it's going to happen anyway) but running away does no one any good.

[Royal Dragon]

What are we even doing in IRAQ now anyway?

[red5angel]

What are we even doing in IRAQ now anyway?

peacekeeping occupation until the government can be handed over safely. you have to do it, you can't just leave them to their own devices.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
sure you risk going to jail, but so did Rosa Parks, and Nelson Mandela did, but the point is he stood up for what he believed, they took their stand, planted their feet and said, I love my nation, but things need to change and by god I'm here to change them.
If you don't like the draft you don't accept it ( I don't think it's going to happen anyway) but running away does no one any good.

Rosa Parks volunteered to "take a stand" at the request of the ACLU, who wanted a media event to draw attention to the movement. It wasn't a spontaneous event on her part.

[red5angel]

boy someone does something and someone has to smear it. MK, do you seriously think that no matter how spontaneous it was or wasn't, it didn't get the point across, or that Mrs. Parks wasn't taking a risk? It most likley wouldn't have been "spontaneous" anyway, even if she decided to do it on her own it probably would have taken some time to decide to go with it. That's not the point, the point is she took the risk to stand up for what she believes

[Shen Zhou]

I love the ramblings of the patriot. War is not nor has ever been about patriotism or freedom. War has always been about resources (natural and manufactured) and economic stability. The civil war was not fought because of slaves or because the South wanted to leave the Union it was fought because the North economic stability was being unbalanced by the Southern Slavery system. The north wanted the South to start using it machines to picks cotton, till the fields, and other manual labor practices. Knowing how much money could be made in the South at the time the rich owners of these machine companies went to Lincoln and said make them used our machines if you want our support during your presidency term. American Revolution was fought over land resource, Civil war economics, Gulf War oil resources/economic, War on Iraq Economic/ Resources. There is nothing wrong with loving your country for the “ideas” which they proclaim to instill but going to war for economics reasons which 98% of Americans never get to take advantage makes no sense to me. The rich reaps the benefits of the economics and resources taken from the falling land and the poor goes to war fights, kills, and destroys for what? An illusion of freedom and patriotism in ideas that are not being held true in there own backyard. I am not condoning in any way the action of dodging the “draft” or the actions of war. What I am saying is make the people completely informed of what is happening and let them make there own choices. (Fight or Flight) I know many Vets who I look upon as soldiers in the TRUEST sense of the word, and I would never down play there actions or what they went through because I don’t know if I could do it as well as they did or even do it al all, but what I do look down upon is them return to there “home land” and still having to fight for balance, economics, resources, freedom, and justice. Just my opinion………. Bush was a draft Dodger? and Chaney, and Clinton, and Kenndey? What about Regan and Bush Senior? I dont know can any one tell me?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Red5, no hard feelings here, pal. Just a heated debate from people who feel strongly for opposite ends of the spectrum. I agree leaving does nobody but myself good. I have a point to bring up about Rosa Parks and the likes. They didn't fight for what they didn't belive in. I don' belive this war is nessacary. Therefore, I see no reason to exstinguish my existince for a cause I don't belive in. I'm incredibly grateful for the ones who have fought and died in Iraq. I'm grateful because they sacraficed themselves for us. I love this country, but I don't love how the country is being run. If there was a valid reason for me going over to Iraq and dying, then by all means I would. backbreaker made a good point. A draft isn't nessacary, there are more than enough troops in Iraq. We need intellegence in Iraq. On another point, would you serve under a commander in chief who did the same thing I feel I'd do during Vietnam? When troops were truely needed?

[Kristoffer]

Kill Bush 04

[MatT3T4]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
Kill Bush 04

Pack your bags, the Secret Service is en route...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
boy someone does something and someone has to smear it. MK, do you seriously think that no matter how spontaneous it was or wasn't, it didn't get the point across, or that Mrs. Parks wasn't taking a risk? It most likley wouldn't have been "spontaneous" anyway, even if she decided to do it on her own it probably would have taken some time to decide to go with it. That's not the point, the point is she took the risk to stand up for what she believes

I'm not smearing it. It's just that most people think she was this tired old lady who had enough and made a stand. The truth is, she just happened to be the one who volunteered for the job. It worked, and it was a good thing, but she isn't the Saint everyone tries to make her out to be. You just threw her name around a couple of times, so I thought I would clarify the story.

[Shen Zhou]

Kill Bush 04

WHOA.

[buddah_belly]

"America, love it or change it."

We need a regime change.

And please, Texas doesn't want those morons back.

[red5angel]

kristoffer, STFU.


captainpickaxe, I apologize for getting heated. My bad. I love my country, even considering how it got started, and I served. I'm not mindless about it, I served so someone wouldn't have to and I don't mind that someone doesn't want to, not everyone wants to do martial arts either. I just don't like ot hear that because someone doesn't liek something, instead of changing it their going to leave, or for others, to just sit around and **** and moan about it. Americans have a bad habit of abusing their freedom of speech until things get uncomfortable, then they back off.

I don't agree with a draft, I am undecided as to if it is necessary. Most wars are not altruistic by any means, but they have so far, sometimes been about survival of someones way of life. It's a method of changing, and one that one day may be outdated and outmoded.

[red5angel]

The truth is, she just happened to be the one who volunteered for the job.

That right there is the key - she was offered an oppurtunity to try to make change, and she took it. That's all I need to hear.

[Losttrak]

How am I going to help from the grave?

For the record, the whole concept of Darwinism is that some will be helping future generations by going to their grave. Could that person be you?