william cheung

[cha kuen]

Most of the time sifus give themselves the title of grandmaster.

[doomicon]

Really! I could state my opinion on that, but
to be completely honest, I'm not interested in
the politics. I have more pressing matters, like
finding a good school.

Rob

[passing_through]

To be a "master" of something has a connontation of finality. There is no term in Chinese that matches the English word "Master". As far as I've studied into Chinese language, there is no term that is equal to Grand Master. In Chinese thought, there is never an end to anything - everything cycles through different states. When do you master a punch? Can you always make it better?

Sifu means either teacher/father (traditional) or just teacher (People's Republic of China). Daai Si means great teacher, but does not literally mean master. I've seen Jung Si translated as Grand Master but it actually means clan leader/teacher. I suppose it comes down to how you mean Master. I've heard that a Sifu is one who walks the same path and they're just a little ****her ahead.

Yip Man never referred to himself as a Grand Master - it was his students that made that proclamation.

There are terms to denote great skill that are often used for high level practitioners of a discipline, but those translate closer to specialist rather than Master.

From what I've seen in the modern martial arts world, if you are a Sifu and you teach a student to Sifu level, you could call yourself a Master. If you student teaches a student to Sifu level, your student becomes a Master and you become a Grand Master. I was at a recent Hall of Fame awards banquet and I met a great many Grand Masters, most of which had been studying martial arts for 10-15 years. That's pretty close the time needed to become a PhD - but who does the grading and promoting? As a general rule, martial art instruction is a rather large hodge-podge of standards and quality.

Of course, there is also the case of people who learn a few arts, throw it together, and call it a new art - making them the Si Jo, the founder of the style. And there are people looking to promote themselves any way they can to make $$$.

Martial arts is an interesting place.

... opportunityisnowhere...
... was that no where...
...............or now here...

[remo]

RobO

Finding a good school is a job unto itself.

If you can, drive by and visit the top choices on your list and talk to the instructors and/or top students. If they are not open to visitors, go elsewhere.

If you have already been studying, you'll pick up on the atmosphere of the place right away. If you are new to martial arts, all I can say is go with your gut feeling.

Try to make your decision alone, away from the school and everyone else. Some places use very high pressure tactics, stay away from those. A good instructor will honor your choice to make a decision on your own.

If a sifu is good, people will seek him/her out. Try to find out who and where that sifu is.

Good luck, you have your work cut out for you.

"We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will." Han
from 'Enter the Dragon'

[bean curd]

rill,

mo duk is an important part of gung fu, so lets not play games with foolish words, to prove a point.

if you know what mo duk means, and i am sure you do, then you know where i was coming from.

as to amusing you, glad i brought a smile to your face, thats nice to know, but again if you read what i wrote, i spoke first and foremost on the incidents of hong kong in the 50's/60's, since you are a player in wing chun, then you would be more than knowledgable of what happened.

as for bill using the words "grand master",is it him ? or those who talk about?write about him .

in general these terms are used "inside the family".
one would need to look at "who" wrote the articles, if they where students etc, to understand why they call him the way they do.

if your sifu's sifu taught you for awhile, then how would you address him??? if your sifu's sifu's father taught you for awhile how would you address him???

in earlier days, no one could call themselves a "sifu" as such by their own accord, it had to be given to them by there peers, sad to say but true, in this day and age things have changed greatly!!

[flavour54]

Hi all to those who remember me and with all due respect I have had far to much on my plate to even train a lot let alone get onto this site, Sihing73 how are you? I'm tired of hearing this s***. YIP MAN DID NOT LEARN THE WHOLE SYSTEM. Why do you people think Chuengs system that he taught during the 70's and early 80's looks a lot different to all of other Wing Chun that you see out there. How long did Chueng spend in MAINLAND CHINA. Wake up, How the hell do you people learning bulls*** expect to face up to someone with completely square on footwork or tee stances. Where the the hell does the tee stance leave you in the case your opponent side steps you. GOOD LUCK. Neutral stance makes you so unbalanced in the case of a frontal attack. No wander Jeet Kune Do students take the pi** out of us. Its because of this c*** being so unrealistic. THE HONG KONG STUFF WAS TAUGHT BY A DISHONEST OPIUM DEALER, GET OVER IT AND GO AND DO BOXING AT YOU LOCAL GYM.

"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

[Watchman]

LOL! :rolleyes:



Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[ATENG]

you a regular on Comedy Central? :rolleyes:

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[old jong]

I can't believe that some think that a wing chun guy would fight in Yee gee kim yeung ma!...A training stance!!!I guess we have to put this with the "trapping" category!...Oh god! :rolleyes:And with the "straight blast" :D I understand why some feel the urge to crosstrain so much!...They need it. :eek:

C'est la vie!

[kungfu cowboy]

Hi old jong! How's it going?

Hmmm, I wonder about the stance. I thought it was just a training stance also. At my school, the neutral stance is the one used primarily while fighting, and they use it very well! No problem with mobility or rooting either! Go figure! Check out this article:


http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/...do_hasan.shtml

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

[old jong]

Hi cowboy,everything's O.K.! Thanks.
Well,I think many peoples have some misconceptions about this stance thing.I see the stance more as a concept than a fixed stance! In a way,if you have the ygkym feeling,you can have it in any foot position!This way you can be "rooted" and mobile at the same time.This is a structure when you feel your upper and lower parts of your body are working together.This is why we often see pics of "masters" with a semingly "bad" ygkym stances doing chi sao or something.
Anyway,with your size,no goat could carry you!...Stick to your horse Cowboy :D

C'est la vie!

[kungfu cowboy]

old jong: I like yout interpretation! That makes sense! (you make me sound like a mutant! :D )

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

[tnwingtsun]

"and the rest of the Kung Fu world called him Grandmaster & thought of him as such"


hehehe..........Not me!


ygkym stance is the center,like neutral on your gear shift,you can go anywhere from it.


flavour54,you are cluess my boy,ALOT of Sifus, honest people and non addicts hung out at opium
dens back then to discuss different things,it was a social meeting place for Chinese people back in the old days.it was not looked down upon,only
latter.
As for your take on JKD and boxing vs WT/VT/WC,
its not "US" thats getting our arses kicked
its YOU.


"Bound,by a burning desire,I fell into a ring of fire"
Johnny Cash :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BeiKongHui]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"and the rest of the Kung Fu world called him Grandmaster & thought of him as such"

hehehe..........Not me!
[/quote]

Wow, you were a contemporary of Yip Man?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[Rill]

bean curd,

I realise where you're coming from, I should point out however that the last time a member of our school 'visited' Cheung in Melbourne, Cheung refused to accept (yes, I train with Troy). And no, I don't plan on elaborating on that one :)

I agree, in the absence of a title for someone of a much higher lineage than yourself, it may seem appropriate to call someone 'Grandmaster', but this would imply only seniority in terms of lineage, not skill. To me, truly being a Grandmaster implies both, AND having people recognise it - certainly members of Cheungs 'TWC' would agree he has the skill - which is perhaps why they all refer to him as such - whether or not the rest of us think so is another matter.

Perhaps part of the problem with the distinction is that Yip Man was both old and skilled, and that any variation of this seems to defy the idea of what is probably the only proper example we have to base opinions on? But then, I have been known to be wrong ;)

As for Choi Li Fut students thinking Cheung knew his stuff, I would imagine they'd be impressed after seeing any WC fighter, not just Cheung (sorry, couldn't resist that one) :)