William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan info?

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, it is a form of reverse breathing. I don't like calling it that though, tends to make things more complicted than the need to be.

[taai gihk yahn]

you know that whole "hollow punch" thing was due to Yang Lu Chan teaching Mandarin nobles who had long fingernails and so couldn't make a tight fist, right?

[diego]

I'm studying fitness right now so I have questions on this topic i haven't even figured out yet ... monkeys move muscles with mind... http://www.nature.com/news/2008/0810...2008.1170.html

didn't sun lu tang talk about mental kung fu? I have to read his Hsing Yi book when I get home.

muscles that move the spine: http://www.med.nyu.edu/hjd/hjdspine/...s/muscles.html

So, some thing I'm working on in school they always tell us to sit up straight pull the shoulders back army style. many tough guys walk around with this posture in closed fist chin up waiting to get knocked out...a boxer coils when he fights, he tucks his chin. The Monkey frame in the hop gar stances I do resemble a boxer's or a wrestler's coil... chin tucked into shoulder, elbows guard ribs, tuck knees... give him the top of your head to punch, etc...this coiled is compression like pushing a car...what is it from a skeletal analysis?. Most people don't compress as they walk upright so they don't have crazy internal power, like a person in a hospital or a person who does a desk job at NASA 16 hours a day...the muscles in the center of your back is what extends the spine...not the shoulders pull back...that will get you knocked out in a fight!. I think compression is just use the center of back muscles to hyper-extend the spin while you flex the shoulders and neck into the boxer guard creating internal compression = stoked chi in the dantien, the internal oven.

or I'm drunk

[diego]

you know that whole "hollow punch" thing was due to Yang Lu Chan teaching Mandarin nobles who had long fingernails and so couldn't make a tight fist, right?

for real? I grew up in Canada, first time I heard that

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Closed fist" or tightly clenched fists stop the flow of energy at the area of resistance.. WCC Chen teaches hollow fist relaxed power.. the relaxed/flexible striking is very quick, it flows into the target, and continues after contact.. it has the very desirable attribute of being 'changable', where the clenched version is not only comitted, it's very controllable.. not only does the clenched fist trap energy in the hands, it stops the flow in the arms which creates 'levers' useful in manipulating position..

Reverse Abdominable Breathing (Taoist Breathing) is the actuallity of breath in combat, normal abdominal breathing (Buddhist Breathing) creates a conflict in the energetics of dynamic combat.. the 'expand/inhale~contract/exhale' (Buddhist) negates the compression necessary to accelerate and amplify energy expressions.. as an example, tightly purse your lips so that very little air-flow occurs, then observe your abdomen as you force the exhale and inhale.. it will exemplify Reverse Breathing and create compression.. as it turns out, Reverse Breathing occurs naturally during combat.. to train contrary to that creates unnecessary tension..

What i notice about most Taiji players is that they have been taught 'unnatural' movement.. the form is useful to teach very natural principles of structure, mechanics, alignment, balance, timing and movement.. to create movements that insist on unnatural movements or contrived postures, also creates conflict within the player.. the first thing noticable in a posture or movement that has been trained in a manner not consistent with natural movement, it that it IS noticable.. it tells your partner that something is happening, it alerts them to your intentions.. natural movement, even at combat speed, is much less noticable..

We use 'unconventional' training methods to enhance speed, accuracy and power 'naturally'.. for example, i will put one of those soft weighted rubber balls (3-4 lbs) on a pedestal behind the heavy bag at head height.. the object is to grab and retrieve the ball, touching the shoulder of the hand that grabs it as quickly as possible.. a great way to train the hook.. or, i stand behind the student and toss one of those balls over their head while they wait to grab it.. what this does is to eliminate the idea of conflict and train the 'natural' speed necessary to identify a target and move naturally to acquire it.. the students have little if any tension, and the movements are fluid and fast.. although it takes much time and practice to integrate natural movement into combative skills, the result is a magnitude greater than the tensed fighter waiting to explode into a predetermined 'form'.. a relaxed fighter applying 'principles' as the situation evolves remains fluid and changes with the situation..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

"reverse" breathing is actually quite natural, weightlifters do it all the time, so do we, whenever we are about to exert lots of force.

[TenTigers]

you know that whole "hollow punch" thing was due to Yang Lu Chan teaching Mandarin nobles who had long fingernails and so couldn't make a tight fist, right?

In that case this style shold do well with receptionists, sales clerks, and queens of the trailer park.

[diego]

In that case this style shold do well with receptionists, sales clerks, and queens of the trailer park.

Or peeps who work at NASA...

So, when you do tai chi you relax with reverse breathing creating compression...What does all this mean for fighting?. I was brainstorming this with my older brother who has been in many prison fights and I was telling him my idea of pull back the spine and coil the shoulder frame, tuck the head...when you are attacked your hands react like a snake and shoot out into say double tan sao and you say " Get away" it's a natural reaction. Kung Fu is just dancing through that reaction or land swimming...your hands shoot out double tan sao or clinch and you keep him at elbow, knee, and winch chun punching or tiger claw eye raking range. Now that you hit him he does the double tan sao clinching dance and you guys play water volleyball until some one gasses and drowns... about an hour late the adrenaline wears off you don't feel cool like a ninja any more and the pain of whatever injuries you achieved kick in

I gotta read over this thread again...

[taai gihk yahn]

"Closed fist" or tightly clenched fists stop the flow of energy at the area of resistance.. WCC Chen teaches hollow fist relaxed power.. the relaxed/flexible striking is very quick, it flows into the target, and continues after contact.. it has the very desirable attribute of being 'changable', where the clenched version is not only comitted, it's very controllable.. not only does the clenched fist trap energy in the hands, it stops the flow in the arms which creates 'levers' useful in manipulating position..

I don't buy it; holding the fist "hollow" does not confer any particular advantage: Yang changed it to accommodate his upscale students; it's the same reasoning behind his taking out the seminal movement (from a Taoist alchemical perspective) of Arhat Grinding the Mortar - stomping on the ground would be unseemly; so too went the double jump front kick in the middle of the Second Chapter, the low spinning sweep (Iron Broom) at the end of it and the double jumping / spinning kick at the end of the form (if it's called Double / Twin Lotus, why is there only one kick in the extant form?); these are all movements in the version of the "pre-Beijing" (as my teacher refers to it) Yang form I learned, and there is no "hollow fist" anywhere to be found; at the same time, we do not hold the closed fist "tightly clenched" either, as that does create unnecessary tension during delivery as described above (basically, firing finger flexors maximally has a synergistic effect up through flexori carpi and biceps, which certainly slows the extension of the arm - so no need to talk about "energy" abstractly, it's very well-describable from a neuromuscular perspective) but on impact the fist is tightened; but this is not different from what I have seen in other styles, internal or otherwise: even my old TKD instructor used to punch this way; and William would understand this as well, what with his boxing background...

Reverse Abdominable Breathing (Taoist Breathing) is the actuallity of breath in combat, normal abdominal breathing (Buddhist Breathing) creates a conflict in the energetics of dynamic combat.. the 'expand/inhale~contract/exhale' (Buddhist) negates the compression necessary to accelerate and amplify energy expressions.. as an example, tightly purse your lips so that very little air-flow occurs, then observe your abdomen as you force the exhale and inhale.. it will exemplify Reverse Breathing and create compression.. as it turns out, Reverse Breathing occurs naturally during combat.. to train contrary to that creates unnecessary tension..

this I agree with completely; so-called "reverse" breathing creates a more stable base of support for the second phase of diaphragmatic contraction, because it prevents the abdominal viscera from descending as much as they would during "belly" breathing; so with the central tendon of the diaphragm stabilized, the peripheral fibers are able to contract more fully / strongly to elevate / externally rotate the ribs, allowing for more air to enter the lungs; the contributes to, among other things, better spinal health, better autonomic tone, better lymphatic drainage and better abdominal visceral function; this is all because of the "compression" (followed by a "decompression" part) that creates a "backflow" effect, pushing lymph and venus blood out of the organ systems and back into the vena cava;

What i notice about most Taiji players is that they have been taught 'unnatural' movement.. the form is useful to teach very natural principles of structure, mechanics, alignment, balance, timing and movement.. to create movements that insist on unnatural movements or contrived postures, also creates conflict within the player.. the first thing noticable in a posture or movement that has been trained in a manner not consistent with natural movement, it that it IS noticable.. it tells your partner that something is happening, it alerts them to your intentions.. natural movement, even at combat speed, is much less noticable..

true

We use 'unconventional' training methods to enhance speed, accuracy and power 'naturally'.. for example, i will put one of those soft weighted rubber balls (3-4 lbs) on a pedestal behind the heavy bag at head height.. the object is to grab and retrieve the ball, touching the shoulder of the hand that grabs it as quickly as possible.. a great way to train the hook.. or, i stand behind the student and toss one of those balls over their head while they wait to grab it.. what this does is to eliminate the idea of conflict and train the 'natural' speed necessary to identify a target and move naturally to acquire it.. the students have little if any tension, and the movements are fluid and fast.. although it takes much time and practice to integrate natural movement into combative skills, the result is a magnitude greater than the tensed fighter waiting to explode into a predetermined 'form'.. a relaxed fighter applying 'principles' as the situation evolves remains fluid and changes with the situation..

I am a big fan of the 4# ball, use it in PT w/my kids all the time - great for getting them to coordinate breathing, movement from the core and visual-vestibular integration; the basic position is to have them hold the ball at heart level with what basically amounts to a Lotus Mudra (but don't tell them that!) and go from there; incidentally, I also do push-hands drills with some of 'em, it is a pretty efficient means by which to identify and treat deficits in proprioception, bilateral integration / coordination, etc., and gives me the opportunity to "model" via tactile input what I want them to be doing...

[Water Dragon]

The fist is more 'loose' than 'hollow'. When you make impact, you squeeze the first two fingers and the thumb to maintain the integrety of the fist. This is a slight pulse that creates a whip like effect. The idea is that by staying relaxed and tensing only on impact, you're quicker, waste less enrgy, and it lets less of the force 'bounce back' into your fist which forces the opponent to take the full force of the punch.

It's got nothing to do with fingernails.

[taai gihk yahn]

The fist is more 'loose' than 'hollow'. When you make impact, you squeeze the first two fingers and the thumb to maintain the integrety of the fist. This is a slight pulse that creates a whip like effect. The idea is that by staying relaxed and tensing only on impact, you're quicker, waste less enrgy, and it lets less of the force 'bounce back' into your fist which forces the opponent to take the full force of the punch.

100% agreed on the mechanics, and this is how I was taught: fist closed but held loose (as I stated earlier); but many (most?) taiji folks do hold the fist hollow in such a way that closing it at the point of impact would not be possible; and at least one well-regarded mainland PRC taiji guy told me straight out that you keep it that way when you make contact

It's got nothing to do with fingernails.

this is an explanation that comes down through my lineage (Yang Lu Chan --> Yang Tzai Teng --> Hing Kam Ku --> my teacher); yes, it is word of mouth; like basically most taiji lore, except for the stuff that got written down, which, of course, makes it infinitely more reliable (); anyway, to me, it is a plausible explanation, based on that in my estimation, to hold a fist completely hollow in the way I have seen many "orthodox" Yang folk do just makes no sense at all, for reasons stated above; so I have to go with what I got, which I agree cannot be proven (nor disproved...)

[Water Dragon]

Fair enough. I can only speak to what I was taught. Here's one thing on the 'hollow' fist. I was taught to hold the fist like I had a cricket in my hand. You don't wanna crush it, and you don't wanna let it go. This is more hollow than a boxing fist, but still solid.

[taai gihk yahn]

Fair enough. I can only speak to what I was taught. Here's one thing on the 'hollow' fist. I was taught to hold the fist like I had a cricket in my hand. You don't wanna crush it, and you don't wanna let it go. This is more hollow than a boxing fist, but still solid.

the way I see most taiji guys hold their fist, that would have to be one big fu(king cricket...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

Sounds about right, I had the pleasure of one meeting him a few years ago with a mutual friend.
Very nice guy, totally down to earth, we spoke mostly about the practical application of Taiji.
He showed that "relaxed fist", I had seen it before done by Erle Montaigue ( Yeah, I know, bite me), it worked really well and had lots in common with what boxers are taught to do also, something that he himself mentioned.