dim mak

[Toby]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
...

There you go! Thanks very much Shadowboxer - I stand corrected. Let this be a lesson to all those who argue their mystical claims - provide proof and the most ardent of skeptics may come around to your case. Re the study - very nice. Although we didn't have this problem with any of our 3 (all turned themselves as most do), it is certainly an impressive statistic to those who need a version. 81% vs 49%. Any more studies?

[Toby]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

Hi.

TaiChiBob, obviously you are referring to me. Yes, I'm a skeptic and yes, I require external validation to support my beliefs. What defines the limits of your faith? What if I said to you that I can knock anyone down from 20' away with chi blasts from my eyes? Would you believe that? Or would you require external validation? I haven't personally experienced any dim mak the likes of which BL described. Some of it I believe could be possible. Some of it I would never believe. E.g. cold sores, cancer, heart disease. Do you believe that these can be caused by dim mak? Cold sores come from a virus that most people carry. But some people don't have the virus. Can BL's dim mak cause cold sores in people who don't carry the virus? How about cancer? How is that caused by dim mak? Heart disease? Should I have faith in what she says and believe all these things?

[SevenStar]

I'm a skeptic also. I know pressure points CAN be used - I've seen yang jwing ming touch my friend's arm and make it go limp. But, how many people can actually DO it in a combat situation against a fully resisting opponent? I'm sure you'd find that the number is surprisingly low. When it comes to self defense, there isn't room for theorizing. What theoretically SHOULD work may get you killed when you try it and it doesn't work the way it was supposed to.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Toby .. I was referring to skeptics, of which there are many in this forum.. if you feel singled out that's a personal issue, not intended by me.. I agree that there many claims that are unlikely to be manifested by even the most gifted, but.. i remain inquisitive as to the potential for evolutionary developments.. situations like the Placebo Effect offer insight into the mind's ability to manifest conditions beyond our current scope of understanding.. hypnosis is another field that can demonstrate the potential for untapped energies.. all i suggest is that there is wisdom in recognizing that there is more potential than there is "proof"..

I am not suggesting that anyone rely on Dim Mak as a sole means of self-defense, like anything else it is merely another tool in the arsenal.. i do suggest that, as martial artists, we should not discount historical accounts solely due to lack of scientific proof.. some form of personal investigation is a worthwhile endeavor..

Be well

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

Toby .. I was referring to skeptics, of which there are many in this forum.. if you feel singled out that's a personal issue, not intended by me.. I agree that there many claims that are unlikely to be manifested by even the most gifted,
Be well

probably because its just not neccessary

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

probably because its just not neccessary

...
well, if you really want to try to determine what is "necessary", we would have horrific debate on our hands.. it is purely subjective as to what constitutes "necessary".. and in what situations.. it needn't be such a devisive subject, it works for some, not for others.. pretty simple, huh?.. for those that it works, they don't require the validation of others.. so why bother?

Be well...

[blooming lotus]

cheers

[Gangsterfist]

dim mak.....bah......I'll just use my .45

[No_Know]

SevenStar, the point is not the hopeful hoppers. Just that it can work. Wannabes need not imply. There are not going to be many who can pull it off. but there doesn't need to be many for it to be a neat thing. and There are types of people I migh not have met. Just because one does not meet or see with own eyes dim maker dim making some have not ever seen snow forthemselves that doesn't make it a lie.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
dim mak.....bah......I'll just use my .45

lol...just as well I also sttudied ninjitsu and have sme gun-defence techs up my sleeve..stealth and ( thx to ch'an buddhism) moral use of, is another credit...

cheers :P

bl

[Former castleva]

...Again.. there are those that require proof and those that trust the experience itself.. i have seen and felt the effects of Dim Mak, i don't need measurements or approval by a scientific research to validate my experience.. it's simply a difference of personal belief systems.. some people need external validation to limit their responsibility of choice, that way they can blame someone beside themselves when it doesn't work the way they planned.. some people simply fear being wrong so much that they wont take chances, they wait for others to "prove" something before they get involved.. then, there are those that use science as a crutch to support their own inability to have the disputed experience.. ...

etc.
No offense meant but that´s simply pulling the wool over the person´s eyes.A great red herring.
A shorter answer will do to face a question like "got data?" or to refute a "you have no data".

I notice,of course,that you managed&continued on your point which is great.

[Gangsterfist]

I don't know if this is related or not. One time sifu hit me in the stomach and I instantly passed gas. I don't know what it was he did, but that happened. I wasn't feeling gasy at all that day, and never did it again that day after he hit me.

It could be conincidental I have no idea.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I'm a skeptic also. I know pressure points CAN be used - I've seen yang jwing ming touch my friend's arm and make it go limp. But, how many people can actually DO it in a combat situation against a fully resisting opponent? I'm sure you'd find that the number is surprisingly low. When it comes to self defense, there isn't room for theorizing. What theoretically SHOULD work may get you killed when you try it and it doesn't work the way it was supposed to.

I have a friend at the University of Houston Med. School who is currently under a $300,000 NIH grant to study the efficacy of pressure point therapy (from TCM) on healing, pain relief and other therapeutic effects. So far there does seem to be something to this ancient form of medicine.

As for PPs and real fighting. There are certain vital points that can stun, cause l.o.c. (loss of consciousness), disability and even death. We all know this. To say if I hit GB-9 and L-4 violent coughing, internal bleeding and death will occur within the next day is silly. The meridians as detailed in Chinese Medicine do seem to act on a level beyond motor and sensory nerves when it comes to healing, but their effect is usually not the polar opposite if struck, manipulated viloently or massaged in some manner. The tradition of Yin-Yang plays greatly into the mythical effectiveness of dian xue or dim mak strikes. Now you can slow the heartrate down and cause momentery syncope ("faintness") from a carotid massage, but in a heightened adrenalized state, I wouldn't count on your opponent beind fazed.

I like to think of pressure point strikes as meat tenderizer- mental and physical balance "disruption". Pain hurts. It distracts and causes some to lose their wits and composure. Sometimes pain is enough to gain compliance, but you can't bank on it. Even if you hit the proximal interosseus nerve (shhh! ancient Okinawan secret) just below the elbow crease, which handles motor (motion) and sensory (feeling) signals to your forearm, there are still so many other weapons to watch out for. An angry man can fight through anything short of a k.o. or critical injury. Don't bank on PP fighting. It is a crucial and supplementary knowledge and skill base, but it is no panacea. And it takes years to get down. Double-end bag training will help!

I've been doing MAs that incorporate dian xue ad tuite since I was a kid. I know what works for me, and what the reality of PPs are. There are PP strikes and then there are vital point strikes. I'd rely more on the latter. Later...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Question, when refereeing to pressure points are you refereeing to nerve plexus or to what are some times are called trigger points?

Trigger points: Sore knots or spots caused by local muscle contractions brought on by stress over use ect.

Many common ones have been mapped and seem to fall into the same locations as acupuncture points. There is a large body of work done on this that is quite interesting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

No offense meant but that´s simply pulling the wool over the person´s eyes.A great red herring.

A shorter answer will do to face a question like "got data?" or to refute a "you have no data".

..

Red Herring?.. sounds intellectual, what does it mean.. if this is your "short answer", it is insufficient.. engage the issues.. assertions like "red herring" or "straw dogs" are sterile replies without substance, deflecting a dialogue about the validity of direct experience, cast out from a self-perceived throne of knowledge.. as for "pulling the wool over someone's eyes", hardly.. i offer my own real experiences openly, expecting AND enjoying rational critique.. i do not rely on "data" to validate my experience, data is twice removed from the experience iself, once by the data collector and again by the interpretation of another observer.. Now, please don't mistake this for a disregard of science, it is not.. it is an awareness that science is dependent upon the experience of man, but.. man is not dependent on the experience of science.. man is simply enamored with the quality of life afforded by science..

Science is a tool.. anyone that lets science dictate their experience has relinquished control to the tool.. i suggest that we have as many varied experiences as possible (in a reasonably healthy way), and, if science verifies those experiences, so much the better.. if not, and the experience is personal and real, give science a chance to hone its processes.. coexistence is much preferred over devisive debate.. Mostly, though, i find it lacking in perspective and purpose to insinuate that someone's experience is false or invalid because it doesn't fit some favored model such as science.. Science may explain every aspect of Dim Mak, it may explain it in volumes of research papers and reports, it may even, someday, find some link to Qi.. but, after reading the reports, wading through volumes of data and concluding that now we can understand Dim Mak.. the two simple words, Dim Mak still represent that enormous volume of data.. so, there's the "shorter answer".. let science be supportive of the experience, but not its determining factor.. science will never replace the experience, only describe it ..

Be well..