Is Wing Chun Internal?

[Hendrik]

There seems to be allot of chi kung teachers who translate the words "chi kung" as "energy work". So adding an extra description next to the word "Chi" to describe what type of energy it is, might be appropriate. Hendrik is good with translating so he might have more definitions of it.
I first studied under a western metaphysics teacher who only used English terms.
For example he used the terms "vital energy" to describe the bio energy of the body. Each type of energy had a descriptive word with it and a process of developing insight into it, then a process of developing mastery over it if appropriate. Everything had a set of laws which defined it. Being a westerner trying to tap into chinese thinking is not easy for me, so I just stick with the western terms and principles which mostly come from india anyway. There is only one dhamma (universal laws) so no matter what language we use, they are pointing at the same thing.
I found it best to present the techniques to discern what vital energy is, rather than talk about vital energy. Talking about it creates false views. Working with proven methods brings about direct insight into the term. There are many methods to experience it.
Here is one method I received through the Shingon Buddhist school.

Breath meditation

Sit quietly, still the mind.
Bring your awareness to your breathing.
Breathe into the lower diaphragm sinking the mind to your COG.
Breathe out directing a current of relaxation down to the tailbone up the spine, over the top of the head, through the tip of your tongue and out of your mouth.
Repeat until you become comfortable with it.
Then add counting.
Breath into the COG behind the navel in the middle of your body.
Breath out in the same manner as before, but begin pronouncing the number 1
Breath in and finish pronouncing the number 1 aloud.
Repeat upto 10 then start again. This will regulate the in and out breath correctly
After a few minutes, do the counting silently.
By the end of the exercise, the COG becomes warm, the mind and energy of the body is centered.

I believe variations of this exercise have been taught in Japan for about 1200 years through the Shingon school. So it has been thoroughly tested. It is the first basic meditation training in that school.

Law of resonance in regards to learning

Imagine the frequency of your body to act as a tuning fork. If you are around other tuning forks of the same frequency that are being activated, your tuning fork will begin to vibrate due to their energy output if on the same frequency.
So practicing this in a group allows you to first tune the frequency in while others are activating it for you. Before long you have received the transmission well enough to remember it and repeat it on your own. Taking advantage of this speeds up development and keeps you on track. Hence the need for a teacher.

Just a few thoughts
Mark

Mark,



Thus I have hear.

the issues are

1, there are pre birth shen and post birth shen. until one get in to the pre birth shen. it is hopeless to training the yee. most of the people today is using the post birth shen and that is duality. thus, they cant stay long in the meditation and the non dual cannot open up. After the Dantien is fill to a certain level, the post birth shen must be drop to go ahead......when one is cultivate the qi in the dan dien one needs to use both the martial type of chi an
literate type of qi to heat it up, to warm it up..... and then use the shen to concentrate it.....

2, you are a buddhist, good I believe is you heart. read the shurangama.


“Further, Ananda, if living beings in the six paths of any
mundane world had no thoughts of killing, they would not have
to follow a continual succession of births and deaths........

http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddh...526.screen.pdf



This is the process towards non dual.

The Ear Organ...



“Initially, I entered the flow through hearing and forgot
objective states. Since the sense-objects and sense-organs were
quiet, the two characteristics of movement and stillness
crystallized and did not arise. After that, gradually advancing,
the hearing and what was heard both disappeared. Once the
hearing was ended, there was nothing to rely on, and awareness
and the objects of awareness became empty. When the
emptiness of awareness reached an ultimate perfection,
emptiness and what was being emptied then also ceased to be.
Since production and extinction were gone, still extinction was
revealed.


http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddh...526.screen.pdf



you make your own judgement how close you know and follow this? if not one need a sifu. Who know these.... I would not second guess but begging for a sifu.


will you still be a wingchuner after you enter the door?

Best Regards


Remember the Shurangama. that is the core of Zen. and the precepts must be follow. for thousand of years since the Buddha, the process never changes. and BTW the first few step of the process lead one from post birth shen to prebirth shen. Yes, there is only one non dual. I spend 30 years to get this far baisi with lots of sifus and lots of screw ups to spy a little bit. how much time do you think if one keep thinking in the old duality way can have a grasp of what it is even in the surface?

Starting the internal with I and I want to do something is a trap. starting with I like to let go anything to reach there. that get one in a proper direction. and they are both in the opposite direction. One is creation one is undo. the undo knows how to create however the create trap themself in the creation dont know how to undo. That is the bottom line.



At certain point of meditation, one let go, and that get one into the flow. but letting go is not drift into dreaming or sleeping or lost in thought streams, but enter into silence. no thought at all, no Nim Tau. ( that is the reason I argue, it is siu lin tau, detail training essence, not Siu Nim Tau (small idea) for any idea big or small keep one outside the silence. thus, that doesnt fit our kuit as it says using silence to lead the action.) Let go let god. that is prebirth....

As it says in the kuit, Using Silence to lead action. without entering there to silence how can one knows? but once one enter into silence will one come back to live as a duality person? chances is not for life and death become a tiredsome struggle.

Thus, I have heard.




which world do you live in? do or undo


Just some 5 cents.

[Hendrik]

so may be we need to ask.

Is your wing chun internal instead of is wing chun internal?

[Katsu Jin Ken]

"External should become internal in the long run, and the internal styles may incorperate the external with relaxed power like fajing. The Waiji and Neiji both need to be practiced. You need a balance because the external practices are faster and have more action. But you need control too, and internal methods are more involved with developing the mind and the qi. But in the end the hard has to meet the soft and the soft must come together with the hard. They have to mix."- Grandmaster Chen Yun-Ching from this months Kungfu Taichi Mag.

[Hendrik]

"External should become internal in the long run, and the internal styles may incorperate the external with relaxed power like fajing. The Waiji and Neiji both need to be practiced. You need a balance because the external practices are faster and have more action. But you need control too, and internal methods are more involved with developing the mind and the qi. But in the end the hard has to meet the soft and the soft must come together with the hard. They have to mix."- Grandmaster Chen Yun-Ching from this months Kungfu Taichi Mag.

disregards what others said, internal = release = undo.

external = do = create.

A "do" based long run will not get one into undo infact it becomes more and more do and more and more complex. look at some martial art with 10000 forms. it traps itself to death.

Using a 'Do" based to mimic internal will not do it because if the person keep simplified it the system becomes incomplete. such as some system get critics become a system of a single rapid middle punch.


An "undo" system using a let go let go core. thus, it is always let go let GOd disreagards of how the external form or shape it. The body is like snake because it has to be capable of "limitless" transformation as needed.

if the "undo " concept get lost, the whole system is gone.




Can Jesus Christ be a master if one foot he steps on keep thinking making more money for himself and one foot he steps on the kingdom of God?





World has become not making any sense. thus, we facing with Thai boxer or mmA, all these so called internal guys dont know what to do, for the thai and mmA have thier edge who can crush their sharp edge with limited training in physical and no training in shen and qi?



Back to the non dual. dont understand that will not get one in. non dual is wuji. there is only one reality but do we know that reality or we keep speculate about reality within our mind. again, if one have never met Silence. by default one cant says one master wing chun.

" comes accept...... using the silence to lead the action." it is from this silence the milliod of things transcent. it is alive not fix to some mechanical or bio mechanical limiting action.

So how to fajing? how can a fajing has a fix mechanical or bio mechanical and still call flow? ask ourself. anything can fajing and fajing doesnt mean hit. wrap others like a snake is also fajing.

wake up. dont be mislead by culture tradition. what is the bottom line of Buddhism? simply could one enter the flow and reach non duality. doesnt have to do with I need to do this bow that or ware that pajama or who is my gure. CAn one coach you into the non dual? if not what buddhism is that? . there are 10millions way fo showing respect. but in order to learn something one needs to show respect to the teacher and that is baisi. See, things is not for sale it is on showing universal law.

Simply as anyone love to learn Chris' teaching. they go very humbly to the master, and the master will lead them. NOthing for sale. one needs to bring up one's resonance or vibe to accept the bigger vibe. these days some people are so stupid that they dont understand this.
does one have the vibes? if not one can pay but will not get it. does one have the vibes? if no how can one teach it to others?

[Liddel]

World has become not making any sense

Well me laugh that made.

DREW

[WingChunWay]

I teach Buddhism in classes, so I refer to as Buddhist Wing Chun.---

Ok. Thanks. But Buddhism is oppose fighting or even defending. When things are non dual. There is no fighting or defending.

Remember as it said " comes accept, goes accept and let it goes back...." Isnt that non dual? Get it?.

Developing non dual, non - harming intent while training a striking art can be a dilemma. I focus primarily on join, intercept and break structure for my personal training.
This started strangely enough through door work as my job was to keep the peace when the fights broke out. After a few hundred punches being thrown at me by people who really wanted to hurt me, I found a sense of harmony in dealing with violence. Since my job was a peace keeper, it was my only option. By the time the Buddhism kicked it was just a process of emptying and refining it within the Wing Chun framework that ultimately becomes formless.

When things are non dual there is no fighting or defending because you simply are not there to fight or defend. The insight to side step a situation is there or to handle it in manner where you are not fighting, not defending but just bringing peace to people who forgot themselves for a moment.

Dont teach fighting or defending, be no self that is what my Zen sifu taught me and now I am out of WCK.
Best Luck.

It sound like you had a wise teacher. Being nonself is less about what you do and more about your mindfulness as you do it. We are fighting and defending in everything we do in life, it is just happening on a different level. The mind is dual. It is mindfulness that allows a person to see the duality and have a choice on how to proceed. Your choice was to be out of Wing Chun, mine is to practice mindfulness of phenomena through it.
Just different paths.
Best wishes
Mark

[Hendrik]

Developing non dual, non - harming intent while training a striking art can be a dilemma. I focus primarily on join, intercept and break structure for my personal training.
This started strangely enough through door work as my job was to keep the peace when the fights broke out. After a few hundred punches being thrown at me by people who really wanted to hurt me, I found a sense of harmony in dealing with violence. Since my job was a peace keeper, it was my only option. By the time the Buddhism kicked it was just a process of emptying and refining it within the Wing Chun framework that ultimately becomes formless.------


watch out,

non dual is not using mind.
using mind how little it is to strategy, focus..... are the product of dual.
in the silence everything is there and flow. one just dont think.

one would not be able to know what is formless unless one enter the silence or quiet all thoughts.

When things are non dual there is no fighting or defending because you simply are not there to fight or defend.

with confusion, seperation is created, seperation then create the mind and mind further makes more seperation. the mind cannot stop itself. dont believe me? when you are sleep people call you are you going to awake? see it hard wire.







It sound like you had a wise teacher.----


i go to him because he is the patriach who carry the non dual seal of the buddha. want to learn the truth. go to those who has it.





Being nonself is less about what you do and more about your mindfulness as you do it. We are fighting and defending in everything we do in life, it is just happening on a different level. The mind is dual. It is mindfulness that allows a person to see the duality and have a choice on how to proceed. -------

mindfullness is still within mind, like a deep water fish, going shallow doesnt means see the sky. and know both sea and sky.

until one break the hard wire, one stuck in the mind and dual.





Your choice was to be out of Wing Chun, mine is to practice mindfulness of phenomena through it.
Just different paths.----



sure, however, i would not call my wing chun buddhist if i do it within dual. and also how buddhist is buddhist if teaching other to create more karma instead of liberation?

similar to the shaolin who dont have zen and martial is one non dual is not true shaolin. check it out. the reality is under the public eyes but people choose to not see it.


you want straight talk. here you get but you might dont like it. so do many. and somedays you know there is no alternative to end suffering. you give raise the fighting mind, you will attack fighting. law of attraction, law of resonance. but we all use these law selectively and the blame others.


internal wing chun " come ACCept. goes Accept to let it go, release and liberate, enter the silence and let everything flow." notice there is no think but accept accept, release, liberate, silence, flow. there is no think and mindfull.

dont believe me take a stop watch and see for youself how long can you stay mindfull and how wide you mindfull range? i say unless is in non dual, the range is limited not more then 180% hold to the mindfull even at the best condition not more then 5 mins. that is how mindfull is mindfull. the mind is lying to us and some choose to belive. ya, go to the spar, resolt, yoga class, meditation class... how mindfull is mindfull?

simple and clear but how many willing to see it?


some even complain I use the EEG and HRT to check one's condition. see we are not willing to admit we dont know but saying different path. I told Rene once, saying different path is just about giving face. if we start to say "you dont know S$it" and use the biofeedback machine to scan. the whole world will riote against you." so, everything is ok. as everyone likes it. eventhough it doesnt mean there is no truth.


my 5 cents

[bawang]

yung chun in foshan includes qigong in their 3 forms, so i guess some style has internal parts.

[lord po]

Hi to all,
I'm new here.

I jump directly in the discussion because I see it's very interesting.
My viewpoint is (as someone stated earlier) that if your experience is low or not enough interested in the long run,you should and must concentrate on pure physical level and bio_mechanics.

probably was the item number one in creating fast groups of fighter in the early days, maybe; I was not there!

If having been clear on the physical level, one has still the drive to be a beginner, and humble enough to say oneself that one's knowledge is nothing, then it becomes a long, endless path toward the internal.
Looking inside for subtle connections between things,chemical reaction controlled at will,and impulses given to SNC from one's source and so on.
and we are still talking about qi/energy.
(The field gets a lot subtle advancing versus "shen ability" and following the path and so on.But for this evidence as reality are often confused with tricks and false gurus.so we keep aside for now...)

This was the way to produce Monks, and of course this required deep dedication and lot of time.

Today is still the same paradigm and evidently the same two groups that discussing togheter finds them at one side of the corner looking the other for completion.

This has to be viewed not as a difference separing the fellow, but a tool to exchange even more.

Thank you for your attention.

[tattoosbyish]

i was told by my sifu that the internal aspects of wing chun are implied in the system... he said that is what his sifu told him and his sifu before.......

i study the moy yat system and i also have studied with a tai chi master and still practice my tai chi while learning wing chun......and i find internal perspective can apply to wing chun, i can not flat out say that wing chun is an internal art but in playing hands with my sifu i feel things that i wouldnt necessarily say is brute strength, there is something else going on..........i can compare some of my experiences between the two if anyone is interested? as well maybe spell out a few other things about internal theory that i was taught......

[GlennR]

i was told by my sifu that the internal aspects of wing chun are implied in the system... he said that is what his sifu told him and his sifu before.......

i study the moy yat system and i also have studied with a tai chi master and still practice my tai chi while learning wing chun......and i find internal perspective can apply to wing chun, i can not flat out say that wing chun is an internal art but in playing hands with my sifu i feel things that i wouldnt necessarily say is brute strength, there is something else going on..........i can compare some of my experiences between the two if anyone is interested? as well maybe spell out a few other things about internal theory that i was taught......

Is that a record for digging up old posts?

[tattoosbyish]

haha perhaps.......but i just joined the converstaion

[GlennR]

haha perhaps.......but i just joined the converstaion

2001? Ahhhhh............... takes me back

[LaterthanNever]

"using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves"

Well..ahh..what do you think "jing" is after all? Fa jing..as a concept is related to "lek"(power). Thus..if someone has no jing...it is said they have no "sat lek"(solid power). Jing is "internal" is my point

This whole idea of "He doesn't do kung fu..he only teaches tai-chi"..or some other such idea is flawed.

Tai Chi is absolutely a kung fu style.

There is a certain point in training in which these distinctions of "internal" or "external" begin to blur...

[Vajramusti]

2001? Ahhhhh............... takes me back

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Same old same old topics float round and round in the wind tunnel over time.!

zzzzzzz


joy