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Thread: Is Wing Chun Internal?

  1. #1
    Scott Guest

    Is Wing Chun Internal?

    I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

    -Scott

    "Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

  2. #2
    Scott Guest

    2/5 of a Nickel

    Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

    1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

    2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
    Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
    3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
    A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
    Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

    Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

    -Scott

    "Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

  3. #3
    Watchman Guest
    >>>What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?<<<

    Because Ip Ching says so, and as the great Cookie Monster once said, "That's good enough for me."

    BTW, didn't we already discuss this in the "SLT fast or slow" thread?

    >>>I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.<<<

    You didn't state any "facts".

    >>>What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact<<<

    No, I don't want to. :D

    Watchman&reg;

  4. #4
    Sam Guest

    Internal?

    Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
    Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
    Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
    All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. www.buddhapalm.com

  5. #5
    edward Guest

    most definitely

    wing chun is definitely an internal art.

  6. #6
    Scott Guest

    umm =p

    That's not very effective =P

    Sam, where did you get your definitions for the sets? I've never heard them defined that way.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Siu Lin Tao (Little Transmutation) Golden Bell Heavy Hei-Gung.
    Chum Kue (Depressing Bridge)Light skills Hei-Gung.
    Biu Gee (Darting, Thrusting, Penetrating Fingers)Dim Mak extending Chi.
    All forms utilize internal energy tork and Fa Ging. [/quote]

    First, there is no definite way to translate the symbols that stand for any of the sets or the words "Wing Chun" themselves-- we can only guess. But I've always heard Sil Lim Tao to mean "Little beginning idea", Chum Kiu to mean "Searching the bridge," and "Biu Gee" to mean something about thrusting fingers. Biu Gee doesn't seem to be about Dim Mak to me, but rather about recovering the center line with damaging techniques--hence the odd angles on attacks. I don't see any evidence of showing "secret striking points" either, just the usual eyes, throat, that sort of thing.

    More opinions?

    -Scott

    "Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

  7. #7
    Stranger Guest
    For what it is worth, William Cheung has written that the art is internal in his opinion.
    First Form is covered in his book "How to Build Chi Power" and focuses on internal development.
    He would agree with Sam that the third form is a dim mak form, it is written in the aforementioned book.

    "Luminous beings are we."

  8. #8
    JasBourne Guest
    My personal opinion is that it is internal. I'm not advanced enough to pull out any 'facts' to support my statement, other than it feels pretty ****ed internal to me, so that's where I put most of my focus when I practice.

  9. #9
    Highlander Guest
    As it was explained to me, there are internal elements in Wing Chun, but that does not make it an internal system. It is an external system because of one thing, it is not dependent on the internal. That is, Wing Chun works because of body alignment and structure not internal power. If you completely removed the internal from Wing Chun it would still be an effective art. In fact some school do not teach the internal. As has been mentioned here previously, not all school do Sil Lum Tao slowly. Some school even use dynamic tension in the first form.

    Actually, one of the principles Wing Chun is based on is the principle of Yin and Yang. Therefore, Wing Chun contains both internal and external elements is equal proportions. So I prefer to think of Wing Chun as a balanced art

  10. #10
    cho Guest
    I'm part of the school of thought that believes every art requires both internal and external. I think this especially applies to Wing Chun.
    Some people I've seen do nothing but the Chi Sau and practice the SLT as if it was qigong, but don't do the punching or drills. Those people get beaten and make Wing Chun look bad. Then there are those who do the opposite and train it as if it was kickboxing. They have a better chance in a fight.
    As Fist of Legend put it,
    "Hard without soft only wastes energy. Soft without hard can never strike."s

  11. #11
    shaolinboxer Guest

    No difference

    Internal, external. One doesn't exist without the other.

  12. #12
    Kaitain(UK) Guest

    funny - but what do you think Taiji is?

    all we work is rooting, body alignment, structure and mechanics

    the WC guys I train with were surprised at the 'real' nature of my style - if I tried using the postures of the form as they are practiced I'd get a beating. It's all about principles of movement - surely a similiar concept to WC?

    There's nothing I talk about to my WC friends that doesn't appear in some form in their own system e.g rooting, power from the waist, slipping/avoiding/passing rather than blocking/attrition, unending flow of attack, no retreating, attacking the centre.

    I move slowly in the form so I can move quickly - no restrictions, no tension, just fluidity. Nothing to do with building up some mystic force - just perfect shape and movement.

    The biggest difference we've encountered so far is that ****ed sticking legs **** you guys do - it has really improved my awareness of the whole fight.

    It's hard to stick a label on WC though as there are so many conflicting views - I have pushed with WC guys who were as soft and fluid as me, and others who were harder than a karateka. The soft guys were the hardest to fight - WC doesn't seem to work when it's hard and tense.

    Wish we didn't have such a bad image :(

    Anyway - in answer to the question I'd say WC was internal as you aren't reliant on conditioning, strength or speed. The guys I sparred with used technique, timing, strategy and most of all sensitivity.

    "If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

  13. #13
    MikeDensity Guest
    I tend to agree with Highlander about there being a balance in Wing Chun's theory. Obviously, some schools teach more of a hard approach and some schools teach more of a soft approach. Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art. Just as Tai Chi, when taught by someone who doesn't understand its internal aspects, will look a lot like dancing rather than Kung Fu.

    I have a lot of difficulty figuring out what is meant by internal power. If by internal power you mean: does Wing Chun stress and teach proper mental focus, bodily structure, and form? I'd say yes, it is meant to. The purpose of the Siu Lum Tao, according to Ip Man, was the internalizing of the Wing Chun repertoire.

    So, this is all in my own humble opinion. I'm not sure what theories and facts you're interested in? Quotes from Wing Chun masters, a Wing Chun training syllabus, stories about Wing Chun masters who had cultivated enough internal power to jump 30 feet straight up, something like that?
    :) Lemme know, and good luck on finding an answer to your inquiry.

    Mike

  14. #14
    Watchman Guest
    >>>Wing Chun only exists in the minds of its practitioner and is therefore subject to being filtered through imperfect humans. If Wing Chun is practiced by one who doesn't understand it's internal power it will appear to be a very hard martial art.<<<


    Very good point.


    Watchman&reg;

  15. #15
    old jong Guest
    Wing chun can be practiced as an external art but is really internal.All the training(forms) is internal.

    happens!


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