Is Wing Chun Internal?

[anerlich]

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route.

Not all of them - Dave O'Donnell, one of Jim Fung's six senior students now guiding his organisation, trains BJJ with me at Lange's MMA in Manly. He's a pretty good purple belt.

internal martial arts basically use optimum body mechanics so perfectly to the point that you can not "see" what they are doing. All adjustments are made internal minute changes in angle and weight distribution among other things. Good Tai Chi pushs hand practitioners do it all the time.

I can accept that. Though I don't see any essential difference between that and what top level BJJ players or boxers do. Optimum body mechanics are optimum body mechanics, the internal/external labels have no relevance.

just because I haven't experience doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Perhaps not, but after a few decades of pretty well rounded experience and investigation one has to conclude the odds of its existence are fairly unlikely. If it was, you could start a show in Vegas and rake in the cash, or obliterate everyone in the UFC, WBA and WWE. Lots of money, kudos, national pride, fame, etc. for such a practitioner. For some reason they are all too humble and selfless and only want to teach secretly to people who want to remain anonymous on the internet ...

[GlennR]

Not all of them - Dave O'Donnell, one of Jim Fung's six senior students now guiding his organisation, trains BJJ with me at Lange's MMA in Manly. He's a pretty good purple belt.

Yep, fair call.. ive met Dave i think at one of G. Kershners seminars, big guy isnt he? I was speaking about some of the academies later vids i have seen in regards to my earlier comment

I can accept that. Though I don't see any essential difference between that and what top level BJJ players or boxers do. Optimum body mechanics are just that, the internal/external labels have no relevance

Bang on

[anerlich]

Yeah, Dave's over 6', probably 85-90 kg.

[nasmedicine]

Great, that opens a line of conversation



I started with Fung in 1990 and ,due to a move, started a mainland style which i did for 6 years. On returning to Sydney i looked up Fungs main instructor with whom ive been training with since. So i have a take on their style.
They ARE big on structure ,and it is the basis for the system, but they dont link it with the more esoteric meaning of internal..... its about mechanics, simple as that.

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route... IMO but i may be wrong




Great, a reply with substance... thanks



Interesting term, could you expalin that to me?



Fair enough

Chu Shong Tin (Tsui Seung Tin) I believe and with speaking with people who have trained with him definitely teaches Yip Man wing chun from a more "internal" angle. I don't know about the current state of fung's school.

The basic premise is if force is applied at one point/end it can be transmitted to another point/end if you are using an incompressible/nearly incompressible fluid within in a piston/cylinder. Wing Chun has Chi Gung which I define simply as the ability to move your blood to and from various portions of your body; this is usually but not alway in conjunction with breathing techniques. There is also an autonomic component that you can train through meditation (the same way you can slow you heart rate down by relaxing) When trained properly you can slightly vasodilate or constrict your vessels to help blood flow or not flow. This in conjunction with heart rate control/controlled breathing as well as muscle contraction (which aids in the venous return) can help propagate blood flow. When train correctly training you can then help guide (not control) blood flow to certain areas. For health it is great, you can push fresh oxygenated blood to tissue that need various elements that are found in your serum. Okay, so now having said all that you can also for example push blood into your arms and hands for kung fu (one example). Simply put I will mention two main things that this does (although there are others) 1.) It will provide ample amounts of oxygen and other metabolites to your muscles in the the desired area (the arms in this example). This will help combat fatigue and injury/inflammation during combat. 2.) the extra volume of blood in the arms will significantly increase the weight and density in the desired area (arms) allowing you to hit with more weight/passive force (internal) and less active force/intense muscle contraction (external) [forgive me for using internal vs. external, just doing it so people can follow]. In essence it similar to the pump you get when you work out (however not as exaggerated). So back to hydraulics you are compressing a relatively non compressible (due to the fact that it's in a somewhat closed system) fluid BLOOD, through a cylinder/piston VEINS and ARTERIES. By compressing one end of the parallel circuit you can then push the flow of blood through that circuit generating a force on the other end. (i.e. compression of interncostal vessels in rib cage, increase venous return to heart, more blood into subclavien into arms leaves you with a very very crude explaination of "chi" cultivation in the arms practiced by many "internal" southern kung fu styles (mantis, crane, and yes even wing chun). I really hope this all makes sense. If not then I'm sorry, I tried and I give up.

[GlennR]

Yeah, Dave's over 6', probably 85-90 kg.

Im pretty sure thats him, im training with Beau Bouzaid who im sure he'll know

[Runlikehell]

I started with Fung in 1990 and ,due to a move, started a mainland style which i did for 6 years. On returning to Sydney i looked up Fungs main instructor with whom ive been training with since. So i have a take on their style.
They ARE big on structure ,and it is the basis for the system, but they dont link it with the more esoteric meaning of internal..... its about mechanics, simple as that.

Having said that, from where i sit, since Fungs death they seem to be heading a bit down the "mystical" route... IMO but i may be wrong

When I started with one of their branches, one of the instructors told me (something along these lines) that TST 'found' a more internal interpretation. Which seemed a bit mystical to me, but the way TST himself tells it, Yip Man taught him about Nim Lik.

Make of that what you will.

[nasmedicine]

I can accept that. Though I don't see any essential difference between that and what top level BJJ players or boxers do. Optimum body mechanics are optimum body mechanics, the internal/external labels have no relevance.

I never labeled anything, but unfortunately I'm forced to conform to the vernacular of who ever I'm speaking to. There is no difference/labels at the top. The truth is the truth, plain and simple. Whether you call the truth internal or perfect mechanics or chi or whatever. Truth is always the truth and you know it's the truth because you can't disprove it. (i.e. if you think your a good fighter (thus you think you have the truth) and you come across another fighter who is better than you and defeats you by a wide margin (now has the truth). You then can do two things: 1.) realize that what you held as true before (you being the best) is no longer the case and start searching for the truth (i.e. train harder, better, and differently to overcome your opponent next time). or 2.) Be in denial and still think that you are truly great and your opponent was just lucky.

I think i'm getting tongue tied, to much truth..

[GlennR]

Chu Shong Tin (Tsui Seung Tin) I believe and with speaking with people who have trained with him definitely teaches Yip Man wing chun from a more "internal" angle. I don't know about the current state of fung's school.

Yep he does, if by internal you mean body mechanices, relaxing etc. One of hs big things is Nim Lik.... what id call visualisation.

The basic premise is if force is applied at one point/end it can be transmitted to another point/end if you are using an incompressible/nearly incompressible fluid within in a piston/cylinder. Wing Chun has Chi Gung which I define simply as the ability to move your blood to and from various portions of your body; this is usually but not alway in conjunction with breathing techniques. There is also an autonomic component that you can train through meditation (the same way you can slow you heart rate down by relaxing) When trained properly you can slightly vasodilate or constrict your vessels to help blood flow or not flow. This in conjunction with heart rate control/controlled breathing as well as muscle contraction (which aids in the venous return) can help propagate blood flow. When train correctly training you can then help guide (not control) blood flow to certain areas. For health it is great, you can push fresh oxygenated blood to tissue that need various elements that are found in your serum. Okay, so now having said all that you can also for example push blood into your arms and hands for kung fu (one example). Simply put I will mention two main things that this does (although there are others) 1.) It will provide ample amounts of oxygen and other metabolites to your muscles in the the desired area (the arms in this example). This will help combat fatigue and injury/inflammation during combat. 2.) the extra volume of blood in the arms will significantly increase the weight and density in the desired area (arms) allowing you to hit with more weight/passive force (internal) and less active force/intense muscle contraction (external) [forgive me for using internal vs. external, just doing it so people can follow]. In essence it similar to the pump you get when you work out (however not as exaggerated). So back to hydraulics you are compressing a relatively non compressible (due to the fact that it's in a somewhat closed system) fluid BLOOD, through a cylinder/piston VEINS and ARTERIES. By compressing one end of the parallel circuit you can then push the flow of blood through that circuit generating a force on the other end. (i.e. compression of interncostal vessels in rib cage, increase venous return to heart, more blood into subclavien into arms leaves you with a very very crude explaination of "chi" cultivation in the arms practiced by many "internal" southern kung fu styles (mantis, crane, and yes even wing chun). I really hope this all makes sense. If not then I'm sorry, I tried and I give up.

I appreciate your reply.... but... if the above could be proven to work (im always open to different ideas) is it really going to help me be a better fighter?

Not wanting to harp on, but the external method seems to give better consistent results

[anerlich]

I'm not convinced that any serious hydraulic principles as discussed can be easily applied when blood pressure is cycling systolic/diastolic with every heartbeat.

If you're arms are becoming heavier and denser, it also seems they would be harder to move and control. Most fighters seem to have enough problems holding their hands up to protect their heads when fatigued as it is.

Blood accumulating the limbs might also lead to an increased risk of thrombosis, though it was also said that venous circulation was enhanced, which would mitigate such a risk, though how you get both happening at the same time seems problematic, gets filled up fast but also drains fast ... somehow. doesn't sound like a healthy practice, in any case.

You would need some fierce autonomic control for it all not to fall apart when your heart rate gets above 170 bpm, e.g. in the middle of a hard fight where your life may be at stake. You have problems with fine motor skills under such stress, let alone such fine autonomic control.

[nasmedicine]

Yep he does, if by internal you mean body mechanices, relaxing etc. One of hs big things is Nim Lik.... what id call visualisation.



I appreciate your reply.... but... if the above could be proven to work (im always open to different ideas) is it really going to help me be a better fighter?

Not wanting to harp on, but the external method seems to give better consistent results

Better fighter no, more efficient yes. IMHO

I agree but those gains are less appreciated in the higher age population. And ofcourse I'm not joining the ufc anytime ever so the health proponent is also very important to me. The fighting is extra gravy (really good gravy)

[nasmedicine]

I'm not convinced that any serious hydraulic principles as discussed can be easily applied when blood pressure is cycling systolic/diastolic with every heartbeat.

If you're arms are becoming heavier and denser, it also seems they would be harder to move and control. Most fighters seem to have enough problems holding their hands up to protect their heads when fatigued as it is.

Blood accumulating the limbs might also lead to an increased risk of thrombosis, though it was also said that venous circulation was enhanced, which would mitigate such a risk, though how you get both happening at the same time seems problematic, gets filled up fast but also drains fast ... somehow. doesn't sound like a healthy practice, in any case.

You would need some fierce autonomic control for it all not to fall apart when your heart rate gets above 170 bpm, e.g. in the middle of a hard fight where your life may be at stake. You have problems with fine motor skills under such stress, let alone such fine autonomic control.

As far as you being or not being convinced is not relevant. Also, It's not easy never said it was easy and one may never be able to use it for fighting. However if you can do it great. You will not see most professional fighters doing this training because it will take up to much time, time they can be using for other thing. However some of the top tier Gracie do practice this to some degree. They are now teaching and no longer actively fighting professionally.

[Hendrik]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zrk2q...e_gdata_player

[anerlich]

Exhumed!

Just looking back to the last couple of posts:

I never labeled anything, but unfortunately I'm forced to conform to the vernacular of who ever I'm speaking to

Oh, get your hand off it. You used the word "internal" twice in the post you made above to which I responded to which you gave the above response. Have a look for yourself. You seem to be treating your audience as being much less intelligent and knowledgeable than yourself, An approach which I suggest is both arrogant and incorrect.

As far as you being or not being convinced is not relevant.

If you can't convince me you aren't making sh*t up, chances are you won't convince anyone else either. Up to you whether that is relevant, I guess.

However some of the top tier Gracie do practice this to some degree. They are now teaching and no longer actively fighting professionally.

Which top tier Gracies? Rickson? Kron? No Gracie alive is much more top tier.

They have some interesting breathing and Gynastica Natural / Yoga practices going but I've not heard of this blood moving methodology despite having a more than casual interest in such topics and the history of BJJ and the Gracie family, and having studied internal MA for over five years.

Surely Rickson would have used it if it actually worked. He and Kron have given extensive interviews on their breating and associated practices, which Rickson was taught by Orlando Cani, the Gynastica Natural guy, who (according to Rickson) told Rickson that he had taught Rickson everything he had to give. No mention of this blood stuff, unless he's secretly keeping it from the BJJ world including his students but for some reason is happy to share it with Kung Fu people on another continent.

I've been doing BJJ for about 15 years and am naive enough to be confident I could probably find out more about this than a random New Jersey Kung Fu guy could (no offence). Happy to start down that track and report back if you can tell me which Gracie(s) I should research.

[anerlich]

Yeah, Dave's over 6', probably 85-90 kg.

Glenn, he and I were awarded our BJJ black belts on the same night in December 2013.

[GlennR]

Glenn, he and I were awarded our BJJ black belts on the same night in December 2013.

Exhumed indeed!!!

Congrats to both of you fine gents