Yes, Simon is an exteranlist who has been walking in (bagua) circles for years, searching for real "battlefield" kung fu........LOL,LOL,LOL!Originally Posted by GlennR
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Yes, Simon is an exteranlist who has been walking in (bagua) circles for years, searching for real "battlefield" kung fu........LOL,LOL,LOL!
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And I would waste time training something that supposevely takes years to perfect because you say so, when I can train using proven methods that will get good results.
I believe the body is capable of making loads of fantastic stuff, because I have seen first hand how mind over matter works.
I also believe the world is full of charlatans and fools willing to follow.
So far I havent witnessed any internal MA that has shown anything that cant be learnt with good hard work.
but ofcourse I have seen many internalist who are super fighters, they just dont want to show it because its to deadly
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An expert Internalist may spare your life, but since I am still not there yet, I may lose control and feed you your own testicles.
OK, yes Wing Chun IS internal!
Next question please.
I have two genuine kung fu sifus. That is two more than you will ever have.
You better hope not, because he would beat the cr@p out of you as well.
Actually, now that you mention the Triads, did you know that many of them practice kung fu, and that there are some sifus amongst them? Oh yes, what do they know about realz fighting anyway.....
You may laugh at me, but you will never laugh as hard as the fake sifus who took your money for all those years, are laughing at you. LOL,LOL,LOL!
Last edited by Hardwork108; 07-16-2011 at 05:17 AM.
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That is why some people learn certain things, while others don't, because it will take them a "long" time. Each to his own.
However, that does not stop you from finding an Internalist master or sifu and talking to him and perhaps touching hands with him. If you do, then you will have more evidence than pages of internet forum literature!
Of course, if you are not willing to do either, then you should not make comments about the subject matter, as you will be missing important points of reference.
The "mind over matter" concept covers a huge area - including both the Internals and the Externals.
Let's leave Graham H, Simon M and Glenn R and their "kung fu-ist sifus" out of this, shall we? LOL!
That may be because you have not seen any real Internal MA, just like the aformetioned Glorified Kickboxers.
I am sure if you venture into you local China Town, search for a genuine kung fu school, armed with a big mouth, then there will be more than a few sifus who might show you.but ofcourse I have seen many internalist who are super fighters, they just dont want to show it because its to deadly
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And I would waste time training something that supposevely takes years to perfect because you say so, when I can train using proven methods that will get good results.
I believe the body is capable of making loads of fantastic stuff, because I have seen first hand how mind over matter works.
I also believe the world is full of charlatans and fools willing to follow.
So far I havent witnessed any internal MA that has shown anything that cant be learnt with good hard work.
but ofcourse I have seen many internalist who are super fighters, they just dont want to show it because its to deadly
Most , maybe all people that found internal started out doing external, nothing wrong with that. External will give you results very fast. But what happens after years of doing external you reach a peak, then you start going down the other side of the peak. Externals are based more on conditioning, so as you get older you get slower and weaker and soon people with a less experence are giving you a hard time or showing you up.
Then if you are lucky you meet some little guy and by using little effort can throw you around like a piece of hay, and just laugh. Then you know there is something missing.
So you start training internal if you have a teacher, and soon you are going up hill again, and this time conditioning does not make any difference, and this time you will never reach a peak, the hill has no limit to how high you can go. Age , speed, strength are not the key factors any more.
But I don't know anybody that just went to internal that got any good, I think you need the external as a reference also. I think you need to learn all you can of as much as you can of MA so you have a reference to compare things.
Books are not real references, they are somebody elses experence, but they are good way to confirm your experences.
I would not even consider a student unless he has around 10 years experence in MA, otherwise they have no reference and don't even appreciate what they are learning, they need to be able to compare the old way to the new way.
Grand Ultimate
the part that you quoted is my own words, but what it's referring to isn't just my opinion. It's referring to the Kuen Kit (which I didn't write) and has been passed down for generations. I guess there's always the fact that the older masters could be lying, but there are Kuen Kits from different lineages across the world share many of the Ving Tsun Maxims/Proverbs. Plus, if we assumed that older masters were just lying to us about the internal aspects, then why not assume the same about everything every master has said? That would just leave is with no understanding of internal or external at all.
If these maxims dont show any "internal" aspect of Ving tsun, then I'm not sure what would:
- Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power.
- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.
- To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
- Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
- Eyes are trained to be alert; the chi flows in a perpetual motion.
- Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.
- No harm will come if chi is nurtured naturally. Power can be stored but with enough to spare.
- chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back.I was referring to what someone said earlier concerning Taoist philosophy. When the thread title asks if Ving Tsun is internal, I would say that it has many internal aspects but it's not "purely" internal. I dont think any art is purely internal because that would violate the philosophy of many internal arts. Internal and external, soft and hard: they should both exist in a "internal" style. If that were not true then it would be like the Yin Yang being cut into just pure Yin or pure Yang, and Taoist philosophy would say that such a way of fighting/training is not recommended since both powers must exist together.
For example, martial arts in general teach us to be relaxed, but this doesn't mean that we should be relaxed to the point where we can get blown over by a gust of wind or be so soft that people can just control our bodies.
The point of the photos was to show similarities between structure of styles that would be considered soft and styles that would be considered hard. The shaolin punch, the tai chi brush knee motion, and the boxing rear cross all have the weight on the front left, the shifting of the hip, and the pushing off with the rear foot (any maybe other similarities as well). So from this, we can conclude that styles like Tai Chi which are considered "internal" dont just draw all their energy from some invisible power but rather they do have the structure and power generation methods of hard styles as well in the same way that styles like western boxing and shaolin also use relaxed energy to strike faster and take less damage and save energy (and whatever other reasons there are). It was mainly to show that if all styles have some aspects of both (especially "stereotypical" internal and external styles, like Tai Chi and Shaolin), then its up to us to observe how much of each aspect (internal or external) is present in the style (and i agree this varies w/ opinion and experience)
But I will also admit that after typing this out I do realize there is a problem with just using the terms "internal/external" and "soft/hard" so casually like I've been doing. I guess the real thing we'd have to do as a group is to first establish what are the unique qualities of each term
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...
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Yet another kfo thread- neither internal or external or mixed- just eternal.
If it disappears someone is bound to dig it up again.
joy c
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Nice overgeneralisation.But what happens after years of doing external you reach a peak, then you start going down the other side of the peak. Externals are based more on conditioning, so as you get older you get slower and weaker and soon people with a less experence are giving you a hard time or showing you up.
At 56, I guess must still be climbing the peak and expect to do so for a while yet.
Actually, you can learn to use your leverage and sensitivity better with experience. A lot of BJJ guys start off with a fast, athletic game, and as they get older they move to a slower, tighter game that requires less strength and speed and can still vanquish the twentysomething athletes.
Ive met several guys like this. My BJJ instructor for one, JJ Machado another. Gogen Yamaguchi was rumoured to have such attributes in his extreme old age according to one eyewitness I know personally. "External" martial artists one and all., although Tim Cartmell (an internal martial artist, look him up) says he thinks BJJ is internal.Then if you are lucky you meet some little guy and by using little effort can throw you around like a piece of hay, and just laugh. Then you know there is something missing.
"Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
"We are all one" - Genki Sudo
"We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
"Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander
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All MAs that use or incorporate grappling will have "sensitivity" and the use of leverage. All external MAs will have internal elements and depending on the practioner the Internal elements will show up later on during older age when better technique has to compensate for lack of physical strength. So nothing new there.
The Internals go beyond that. When you finally decide to study them one day, with REAL master I might add, then you will see what I and others here mean.
Of course, to have a better chance of being accepted into a genuine TCMA kwoon, I would suggest that you change your know it all attitude as you will never be able to disguise and hide your cluelessness from those people.
If you are talking about the Goju Ryu master Gogen Yamaguchi then for your information the Goju style itself has INTERNAL elements and is highly influenced by Fujian White Crane, which is an INTERNAL system of Kung fu. The name "Go" "ju", itself mean, HARD/SOFT! The "soft" is a reference to the Internals.
Boy this is like discussing TCMAs with Kindergarden kiddies....LOL!
We have SimonM with "decades" of experience, including the "Internals", thinking that the Baguazhang circle walking is about battlefield applications...LOL,LOL,LOL!
Then we have Anerlich and his "decades" of McTCMA, who has never been aware of the "soft" in the "hard/soft" style of Goju Ryu karate, which is largely (not enough, unfortunately) influenced by an INTERNAL kung fu style.
And the circus act of "pretend" continues by the "kung fu" tagged kickboxers of this forum....LOL!
So thanks for the laughs....LOL!
The world, with this forum included, is full of people who "say" things......
Personally, I would say that you could train BJJ in a more internal manner and then loosely refer to it as an internal art, however, we will still NOT be talking about the INTERNAL TCMAs!!!
Last edited by Hardwork108; 07-16-2011 at 09:17 PM.
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I can see how BJJ while on the ground can be very dependent on sensitivity, but when I am talking about TCMA I am not including ground fighting.
I know ground fighting is very popular these days, but I don't think of it as a MA, it is more of a one on one fighting game, but it does have good ground fighting techniques for shure.
I know some people like to roll around on the ground, looks like to much work to me, but thats me. Everyone has there own preference, like the food they eat.
I am sure the same principles of gravity can be applied on the ground, but the balance and stuff will be applied through different parts of the body, instead of the feet. So my comments above are not directed to BJJ, and I think internal can be applied to any art.
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I don't know why I 'm feeding into this by writing about a thread that is more than 10 years old. But it's Sunday, it's not american football season yet so I am killing about 5 minutes.
From Peter A. Gilligan's book What is 'Tai Chi'? Here is what Peter (who is English) says about the internal/external. [T]he techniques used by different schools and styles [of martial arts] may differ. That the goal [of the martial arts schools and styles] is the same is reflected by the internal/external conclusion of both resulting in hard and soft together.
What Peter is saying is that once you reach a high enough level, it does not matter. If you start out with an external style and in the higher levels you will develop internal methods and the end result will be external and internal. If you start out with internal style then the converse will happen.
It is said that the Tai Chi fighters of yore were able to manifest great power. I don't know if it is true or Chinese legendary hyperbole.
However, in my opinion VT is Internal and External when taught correctly. The VT practitioner develops them simultaneous, starting from being weak externally and internally thence, with practice and patience, hopefully, to being strong externally and internally. My [albeit limited] understanding is that VT is rare in developing power thus and one of a few styles that but not the only that does so. I think styles from Emei or Omei temple were noted for using this type simultaneous internal-external power development.
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Sam,
Get your head out the clouds. I really hope you are joking. Gullible is in the dictionary.
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Since ancient time,
External just means application and raw physical center martial art system.
Internal just means holistic center martial art system.
Why is that an issue at all?
is Wing Chun an Internal art? yes, because it is a holistic center system.
Look at the three sets, the first is for body mind and structure cultivation, the second and third for dynamic structure and applications cultivation.
There is no issue at all, the sets have define and tell what it is.
with human is model as a biomechanics, then,
Qi involve because Qi and breathing is the Chemistry within the Biomechanics ; where physical body is the mechanics within the biomechanics; and intention is the electrical system within the biomechanics.
To make things holistics all of above are address since these components made up the biomechanics or human.
The emei and white crane comes into the picture is only to solve "how" and "what type of platform" the Wing Chun kuen is designed. so that one could effectively activate the Wing Chun kuen sets or process. I personally dont even care if it from chicken fist or monkey fist or Taiji or Wu dang, it has to activate the sets that is the bottom line.
The issues for Wing Chuner are not to argue with something has been defined, but to both find out the depth and evolve the biomechanics and the applications.
simple stuffs why makes it complicated.
look at my other thread, Prio to Wing Chun, and see for yourself what is going on.
anyone wants to know how is Wing Chun sets internal come visit me and see for yourself.
Last edited by Hendrik; 07-17-2011 at 09:41 AM.
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I am a little skeptical of some people who claim things because of years doing and have written books. It always seems like the people who don't have something or did not get it are writing books. I am not sure if this author is reliable, but his web site and videos do not give me evidence that he has developed internal application.
There is a person teaching near me, that has written books, has many students , been doing it 30 -40 years but has no internal core, they never learned how to develop the core, so they think they have something but don't, none of the students have developed anything. They are just getting some exercise doing empty movements.
To develope the internal core you have do the whole system, not just the waving of arms in the air part, those are techniques you can apply after you have developed the core.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jPMXzxvdL8
you post remind me something happen in late 1980's when i was working with a PE proffesor and my friend on Taiji training effect, in PE dept. Iowa state Univ.
one day, I told the PE profesor, such and such masters really dont know what they are doing. the proffessor told me, " you know , we all needs to make a living, so at some time of life we just package up the best we can".
it has been almost 30 years now and I feel like an a$$ because I pointed out these masters issues. for me, right now, life is not mostly about Truth and Facts but compassionate on others who is less fortunate. most people are just package up to make a living.
I have met a sick elderly this week end, he told me he can not afford Taiji. it is too expensive. I then show him some exercises which will certainly help his condition. and I told him we live in the USA these things should be free to all elderly. it will help the elderlyto have a better quality living and safe our country lots of medical spending.
I give things for free these days to those who visited me because I hope somedays Truth are free. So that everyone could afford it. it is not about fighting but a better living.
My late Sifu, Ven Hsuan Hua the Chan patriach, uses to tell me, " if you meet some one who knows kung fu and will teach you without have to pay anything but practice deligently, Go learn with him sincerely. " I thought it is kind of stupid at that time because everything got to be paid and the good thing even cost more money.
Not until I met my late Sigung Ma Li-Tang's teaching. which he makes it very clear, his teaching is not for commercial but helping people. There I learn, yes, real deal can be free and lots of good people in this world is willing to give it to anyone who really needs it.
it is from Ma Li-Tang's teaching and history I get to know what is the core of Internal of Xing Yi......etc. what is the reality and how they practice it at their time. Those are different then the Emei and Wing Chun internal.
less have heard about Ma Li Tang in the West. Ma Li Tang is a heavy weight martial artist and a modern father of Qigong in China, he had studied under, involved and worked with a lots of pionner in China in the era of Wang Xiang Zai, Sun Lu-Dang, and many other top internat art martial artists; lots of scientific studies, fighting, challenging, testing..... going on. he was called "tank" for his figthing ability. however, he was one of the best healing Qigong master/doctor in our era.
Ma also is the close friend and a TCM doctor to the china communist party's officers and generals. since they works together for revolution.
In his old age, Ma teaches Qigong for healing and have heal and cure lots of people in China with Qigong alone.
is Qi real? yes. is internal art real? yes. did they test their internal art? yes. did they test it internationally against other challengers yes.
Ma Li-Tang's bio
http://baike.baidu.com/view/67463.htm
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_60048d410100flay.html
seeing Internal art from this group of people and how they do it give me a good understanding on what is going what is possible and confirm the red boat scripture of SLT kuen kuit on how WCK might be at that time.
Is Wing Chun Kuen internal? the answer is certainly yes. But due to not many in the west or even in the east have seen what is the real internal deal. always there are skeptics and always there are those who blow internal art out of proportion. both are extreme.
Last edited by Hendrik; 07-17-2011 at 11:31 AM.
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