Is Wing Chun Internal?

[YiQuanOne]

Any movement can be done external or internal, styles are there as tools to use to build yourself. Everyone starts out as a external practioner, some styles will make it easier or harder to complete your transition to internal.

Wing Chun is one of the easiest simple methods to make that transformation to a internal aspect, if practiced correctly.

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So just learning the forms is the external part, making the forms internal is the hard part.

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

[trubblman]

Wow! this thread is 10 years old.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know why people want to get on the "internal" wagon. The word "internal" doesn't necessary have good reputation.

[lance]

Here's mine. I don't think Wing Chun is an internal system, based off a collection of facts and experiences.

1) Other internal stylists definetly think that Wing Chun is externally based, using jing power rather than internal buildup of chi to execute the moves. This could probably be discounted, though, because what does a Bagua man know about Wing Chun? But still worthy of consideration.

2) Historically, not counting the Yim Wing Chun LEGEND (it may be true, but we know that Wing Chun was in existence over 200 years before Yim Wing Chun was alive. However, she probably did make the system famous and rename it after herself. Wing Chun is a system probably made to teach groups of peasants how to fight in a short amount of time--this explains why 80% of the training involves two people--you're teaching two people something at the same time, which is faster and leads to actual combat skills in shorter amounts of time.
Also, Wing Chun was made presumably with the idea of cutting out uneconomical moves from traditional southern styles--internal styles are mostly comprised of moves that seem uneconomical when compared to 'combat reality' moves. I think the people who created Wing Chun were probably seen much as we see combat realists/MMA people in our times.
3) Most of ideas regarding Wing Chun as an internal style seem to branch from the first 6 moves of Sil Lim Tao, which are done extremely slow. When asked why it is done so slow, many people assume it is done slow for the same reasons Tai Chi sets are done slow (and they are at about the same pace,) which is to collect and store and cultivate Chi. Well, this isn't necessarily the case--and even seems unlikely, since there are no other slow moves in the entire system.
A more plausible explanation is that in Sil Lim Tao, you are learning the very basics of Wing Chun, and thus the base that all the rest of your knowledge stems from. If you learn to perform all of your moves perfectly from the start, you will have a strong foundation on which to base your skills. Now, think again. Why are the punches done 3 times, slow motion, and then 3 more at the end? Which move are you most likely to be doing the most in your Wing Chun career? The straight punch is the heart of Wing Chun, coming from the centerline to your opponent's centerline--the poetic basis of Wing Chun--Heart to Heart.
Look at the other slow moves--(their chinese names escape me, so I will use English descriptions to explain them) the tan sau, the hand ridge block (god, why can't I remember it's Chinese name? =P I know I know it,) and the hooking block. TThe hand ridge block and the Tan block and the hooking hand block are three of the four root blocks, from which every other Wing Chun block is based off of. The only block not present in these three moves that comprises one of the root blocks is the Bong Sau, which sort of makes sense, since the Bong Sau has no other blocks which resemble it--it sort of stands alone. The slow returning ridge hand block builds up arm strength, and once again it is teaching you the EXACT positioning for the blocks so that your base for learning Wing Chun is strong.

Those are my points. What points are there that support Wing Chun as an internal system?

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Scott , to me WC is both an internal and external system , you know why ? You pretty much explained it in the Sil Lum Tao form , that when it ' s done slow like tai chi that ' s the internal part of WC , now you mentioned about the 3 punches ?
Lets say the attacker throws a right punch aiming for your face area you throw your own right punch at his face too , but deflecting his punch away from your face , from there you throw 2 more punches . This comes from Sifu Gary Lam .

The external part is when you use those WC moves for fighting like the taun sao ,
pak sao , bong sao , downward pak sao , fook sao , huen sao . And the 2 forms Chum Kiu and bil jee . The chum Kiu contains techniques for breaking the attackers' elbows , and the throwing moves which comes from the twisting of your entire body , and the kicking techniques . BIL JEE also is unique too using the fingers to strike at the different parts of the attackers' body . Bil Jee also contains kicks too as well as the kwan sao and using the elbows in a different ways just like Chum Kiu , bil jee , and sil lum tao . So each form has something to offer the individual person . Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits , even Augustine Fong emphasize on the samething too . Ip Man would do this form for 1 hour to get the internal benefits .

When you fight using WC you would just move into the opponent as he attacks you . WC is known for it ' s agressive fighting ways . You develop internal power by practicing the Sil Lum Tao form , to develop the external power you condition your hands by striking at wall bags and punch it too and train in the SLT stance with your hands by your waist . To gain internal power .

Other than what I mentioned if possible train on the wooden dummy that ' ll condition the external part of the body . If you can inflict damage on your attackers' first punch , it ' ll make him walk away from fighting with you , because he ' ll feel the contact anyway , if he ' s smart . If he thinks that he can handle your punishment then he ' s stupid . I ' m also speaking from experiences . On the history of WC I do agree with you .

The WC book by GM Chueng talks about the SLT form in the body theres' accupunture meridians lines , The moves of the SLT form when you do it slow it circulates the internal chi to move through the meridians of your accupuncture points . You can also massage it to heal yourself and other methods which the book Chi Power explains .

[Hardwork108]

Any movement can be done external or internal, styles are there as tools to use to build yourself. Everyone starts out as a external practioner, some styles will make it easier or harder to complete your transition to internal.

Wing Chun is one of the easiest simple methods to make that transformation to a internal aspect, if practiced correctly.

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So just learning the forms is the external part, making the forms internal is the hard part.

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

Very well put. I would even go further and say that because most people are learning external Wing Chun, they are not then really learning Wing Chun. If there is no Yin present in the Wing Chun that one is learning then one is not learning the style in the way it was designed to be mastered, hence they are learning something else, ie. a "shell" of what WC should be !

That is my humble and honest opinion.

[Graham H]

Wong Shun Leung say the Sil Lum Tao form should be done very slowely to get the internal benefits

When WSL said "internal benefits" he meant that what you are thinking is important! WSL did not believe in "chi" according to people I have spoke to that knew him. Ving Tsun is not like Tai Chi!!!

Your ideas about SLT, CK MYJ and BJ are totally different to the WSL lineage.

GH

[Graham H]

That is my humble and honest opinion.

...and you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong!


GH

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think so. What do you think? Back it up with theories and actual fact, not preference or fond wishes.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Wing Chun as a combative method should not be taught as an internal system. Now having said that, most TCMA have internal aspects including WC. When it comes to those internal aspects, you can treat them as magic or you can try to demystify them. There are a number of things in martial arts that are thought of as displaying internal power, but I tend to focus on what I believe to be the important lesson.

Blind fold training
Some would consider it as ESP. I Treat it as as an opportunity to learn to trust other senses like feel and hearing.

Breaking
Some might consider this to be a demonstration of internal power. Anyone who breaks really knows that breaking is really about confidence and technique.

Demonstrations of Immobility
Some might consider this a demonstration of internal power. Really, it is a demonstration of people who have trained for a while and developed dynamic and static strength (via stretching, plyometrics, and isometrics), learned to sink their weight, and learned to redirect force.


I have seen other things like monks who claim to use their chi to resist cold and so on . What they really are doing is just tightening their cores to generate heat which is a basic special forces tactic to resist cold. The list goes on and on.

The list goes on with mediation, various iron techniques, technique categorization, fighting strategy, and so on. They are all mystified by certain groups of people partly to appears as wise and in a number of cases because of an instructor's lack of experience to explicitly explain the processes involved.

[HumbleWCGuy]

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Same old same old topics float round and round in the wind tunnel over time.!

zzzzzzz


joy

That's okay with me. I think that these questions get asked a lot because they are important. I like these opportunities to refine my explanations. Although, it is funny that this tread is soooo old.

[Hendrik]

Seriously,

if Wing Chun doesnt have the internal cultivation, Wing Chun is extremely limited.

[YiQuanOne]

Wing Chun as a combative method should not be taught as an internal system. Now having said that, most TCMA have internal aspects including WC. When it comes to those internal aspects, you can treat them as magic or you can try to demystify them. There are a number of things in martial arts that are thought of as displaying internal power, but I tend to focus on what I believe to be the important lesson.

Blind fold training
Some would consider it as ESP. I Treat it as as an opportunity to learn to trust other senses like feel and hearing.

Breaking
Some might consider this to be a demonstration of internal power. Anyone who breaks really knows that breaking is really about confidence and technique.

Demonstrations of Immobility
Some might consider this a demonstration of internal power. Really, it is a demonstration of people who have trained for a while and developed dynamic and static strength (via stretching, plyometrics, and isometrics), learned to sink their weight, and learned to redirect force.


I have seen other things like monks who claim to use their chi to resist cold and so on . What they really are doing is just tightening their cores to generate heat which is a basic special forces tactic to resist cold. The list goes on and on.

The list goes on with mediation, various iron techniques, technique categorization, fighting strategy, and so on. They are all mystified by certain groups of people partly to appears as wise and in a number of cases because of an instructor's lack of experience to explicitly explain the processes involved.

Internal means energy flows both directions, in and out, if only external bigger guy always win.
99.5% of people can only do energy in one direction, they are always expanding out. Running away or moving back is not doing energy in inward direction.

[WC1277]

IMO wing chun has internal but I don't think you have to do anything special to cultivate it other than just being aware of your own body.......just pay attention to your structure and the rest will come naturally...

[Hardwork108]

...and you are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong!


GH

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

[k gledhill]

Your "humble" opinion is the same as the other, and unfortunately majority, clueless "kung fu-ists" who have become great at learning and mastering half truths as regards the TCMAs. I repeat, those who learn any TCMA on their external merits only are learning nothing but a largely empty "shell" of a given style.

That fact alone explains why so many nowadays see the TCMAs lacking and hence look to other styles, including irrelevant, as well as other largely "empty shell" systems to fill in the gaps.

Of course others, will stick to their empty shell Wing Chun until they find out that it is incomplete, the hard way, by getting hurt.

The fact is that all TCMAs have yin and yang aspects and these go deep. They involve specialist training and understanding of body unity, as well as "softness", finetuned "listening" and "sensitivity" abilities.

You need to do more research, even if it involves asking real kung fu masters. I mean you live in the UK for god's sake and there are at least two real masters there who you could research with.!!!

Who would they be ?

[GlennR]

Some styles will never leed you to internal, like boxing, MMA, Karate ect., their just based on building the muscles and speed.

Thats is the most clueless comment about the mentioned arts you could possibly make. The shame is that a lot of people think the same as you

Styles like Tai-Chi will leed to internal, but the tools are not simple and very few get there using the form method that is being taught by most teachers these days. If the teacher does not have it, they cannot teach it to the student.

So tell me, what measurable results will this internal get you??

If you can get the internal from doing one of these styles (tools) then you can apply it to movements of boxing ,MMA , Karate ect..

Why would you want to?

So yes Wing Chun I think is one of the most direct simplest method to build your house. You will still need the guidence of one that can show how the tools need to be used or else you will always just being doing external Wing Chun.

Can you tell me someone that could teach me this?

From what I have seen most people are mostly learning external Wing Chun and are unaware of the difference.

[/QUOTE]

How do you measure that?