Is Wing Chun Internal?

[cha kuen]

You might want to ask Shifu Patterson!

www.hsing-i.com

[kungfu cowboy]

I think that the physical movements of wing chun are designed around the human body to the degree that the priciples can be used in either an internal or external interpretation. It seems a neutral design, and both methods will produce results. Or something.

(I seriously need a life.)

[JasBourne]

How it seems to be working for me is that paying mind to the principles allows me to express those principles physically. If my mind is on an 'external' application of movement, I tend to violate the principles in one form or another. For instance, if I'm using fok sao, and my mind is on the external application, I will tend to use a clamping force rather than a forward energy, and hunch over to boot. If I keep my mind on the principles of the fok sao (internal focus)while drilling, I am much more likely not to automatically use poor posture and inefficient energy when employing the fok in sparring, thereby getting much better results from that tool.

So paradoxically, by focusing 'in', I can express 'out' without having to think about 'out'. I personally think that all the forms have built into them a constantly re-inforcing internal loop.

I don't know that one can understand or achieve 'no-mind' through academic discussion of the subject. I think you have to 'just do it' :D

[Watchman]

From Sifu Patterson's site:

"The original meanings of Internal vs. External kung fu have been largely misconstrued over the last generation due to many "oral" variations of the many different kung fu families trying to paint a picture showcasing their own individual style. So, now adays a person hears many incorrect statements regarding these differences such as External Styles are "Hard" and Internal Styles are "Soft", but in reality the original meaning of this "difference" was entirely philosophic and geographic. The original me aning of the external styles was simply that those styles were originally started by Da Mo and the ShaoLin temples (buddhist philosophy) who purportedly came from India, and was hence from outside China (External Style). And the original meaning of "Internal" was to denote those styles that were founded on the Taoist philosophy of Lao Tzu and were created inside of China (Internal Styles)."

Interesting interpretation. This definition explains your original remark.

Also this:

"It is also true, because of certain historical events, that nowadays the Internal school of thought focuses on not only self defense and external manifestations of ability, such as strength, stamina, flexibility and physical prowess, but also explores the inside of the practitioner’s development. Internal kung fu strengthens the internal organs and circulatory systems. It increases lymphatic circulation to aid the practitioner in removing toxins from the body more rapidly. It improves focus of mind and concentration of intellect. We also learn to apply the principles of Yin and Yang and the Five Elements, principles of redirection, absorption and reflection, evasion and entrapment, etc. These lessons are just as applicable strategically in a business meeting as they are in self defense and confrontation. A person need only be taught their essence of expression in the practical sense. This is also part of Internal kung fu."

This explanation fits my training in Wing Chun as well, so I don't see the big difference in my "external art". I asked my question because I have worked out with a couple of Hsing-I guys in the past and didn't see a big difference in the way they developed and issued power than what I was doing, only that the fighting structure and ways of applying power were different.



Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Xingyi is an internal art because it follows the six harmonies principle. You know, whole body connection, having the "spring" between wherever and the ground (to use Josh's term), heart leading the mind leading the qi. Also, peng jin being the basic, core jin.

[Watchman]

So, if I have a unified body structure, rooting my balance so my footwork is "springy", can express fa jing and explosive power (which I can) - doing so by training my mind to lead the energy - then doesn't that make Wing Chun an internal art by your definition?



Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Why aren't people here answering my questions? How and what makes Wing Chun internal? Don't tell me to define neijia is, I already did.Don't tell me that wing chun has both aspect, tell me how and why. Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that. I can source you to a bagua master saying that if you want, but not any wing chun masters.

Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.

Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?

Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?

Also, some additional questions. Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?

Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?

In taiji, we move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?

[kungfu cowboy]

I also think that internal methods take longer, but the results are usually superior, and can almost be refined indefinately. So there!

(I seriously need a life.)

[mun hung]

All this stuff is making me internally constipated! ;)

[[Censored]]

"Always maintain forward intent."

- Kenneth Chung

Is that high enough for you? :p

[kungfu cowboy]

Pack it up!!!

(I seriously need a life.)

[Watchman]

"Internal power is THE major concern of Wing Chun." -- Grandmaster Ip Ching

[Kumkuat]

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. When I mean intent, you use your mind to create a path from the ground to the point of contact. This is not a forward intent.

[Watchman]

>>>How and what makes Wing Chun internal?<<<

By the exact same criteria you used for Hsing-I.

>>>Also, no one has answered my question on why Wing Chun isn't regarded as an internal art like Taiji or semi internal art like baji.<<<

Don't take offense, but my immediate resonse to this question is: who cares? It may just be because even with Wing Chun's popularity, it is still greatly misunderstood. Whether or not the entire CMA community come together in some huge conference to officially declare Wing Chun as an internal art doesn't really matter to me. Outside validation isn't a big concern of mine.

>>>Or about stance training with intent. Does the IRAS provide and build internal power?<<<

I don't know what you mean by "IRAS", but Yee Chee Kim Yeung is practiced with the intent of squeezing power up through the legs through adduction pressure while simultaneously relaxing/sinking the shoulders to concentrate power/chi to the dan tien. And yes, it must be done with intent (Yi).

>>>Does chain punching involve just the dantien and intent instead of arm muscles to preform? Does it have peng jin?<<<

Chain punching involves the dan tien, yiu ma (waist/stance power), and proper elbow acceleration achieved through total relaxation. I don't know the definition of "peng jin", but if praciticed properly chain punching should express a characteristic whip-like explosive power.

>>>Does every wing chun movement emphasises moving with intent?<<<

Most definitely. If movements are not done with the intent leading them and gong lik (internal power) behind them, then you're doing what my Si Pak Eric Lee calls Fa Sau (flowery hand) movements with nothing behind them to do any real damage.

>>>Any standing excercises like standing post and squatting monkey?<<<

Yes: http://www.stgeorgewingchun.com/news...rnal_power.htm

>>>move slow so we can try to feel the connection and use our mind to lead the qi, does wing chun focus on that or just on forms and chi sao drills and such?<<<

All of the above.

>>>Don't tell me that "oh wing chun moves with intent" tell me where a high level wing chun master said that.<<<

Here's that quote from Ip Ching again:

Internal power is THE major concern of Wing Chun.

>>>When I mean intent, you use your mind to create a path from the ground to the point of contact.<<<

Yes, I was taught to use my stance and footwork to generate power from the floor to the point of contact. I train (with intent) to lock in and coordinate six points (ankle, knee, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist) to focus my entire body behind each movement.



Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[Kumkuat]

Okay, Ip Ching did say it according to watchman. Maybe it is an internal art. But I'm not 100% convinced yet because I tried looking for resources that tell me wing chun is an internal art. I did find an interview with this wing chun master. The master did say Wing Chun was an internal art, but he did not say why. Is there any sources where he describes how Wing Chun is an internal art? I just need to see, just like how
Ma Chuanxu, Zhu Tian Cai, Dai Long Bang, Mike Sigman et al describe how bagua, xingyi, or taiji is an internal art. Thanks.