Hook

[BeiKongHui]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BeiKongHui - the arm positioning that you've mentioned does'nt sound like a fook sau. It sounds more like a lan sau. [/quote]

No, not a Lan Sau as that would not protect you from a shot coming from the outside -to the ear for example. The method I described is a Fook Sau and can block the hook if it's to the head or you can lower the arm to cover the ribs. It also doesn't require stepping in since a boxer will either already be in real close or will tag you with a jab as soon as you step in. Also the Taan Sao works against wild roundhouses and the like but not against a skilled fighter, they'll cut right around it. I also find that the option to step into or around is often not there as boxers are very fast on their feet and often will not allow you enough time and space for complex techniques.

Watchman- I see your point and believe it would work against a more stationary opponent like another WC person but what if the boxer is bobbing and weaving? Could I still expect similar results? Also, I totally agree with your statement on pak da & taan da I learned that the hard way! ;)

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[Watchman]

Panangiotis: with the hooks we're talking about, trying to pak the bicep will only get you hit. The opponent's arm is bent at the elbow and coming in at you in tight circle.

Plus, trying to pak by crossing your body like that removes your ability to simultaneously strike with the other hand. And, if you've got your hand stuck over on the other side of your body your face is left wide open for his quick follow up strike (boxers NEVER just throw one punch, it's all done in combination).

To give yourself an idea of how close this strike is coming at you - hold your arm up in front of you, bending your elbow a bit more than 45 degrees. See how close you have to be to hit anything with power? You're just about at kissing range with the opponent. :eek:

In that kind of dynamic, there's no way a pak sau is going to stop the punch, and you don't have the room to use tan sau effectively. Like BeiKongHui said, the punch will just snake around your arm.

Also, good boxers aren't going to stand still in front of you to throw the punch. Good hooks are delivered with a shift of the hips so they can power off of their legs and shoot the punch in on an off-angle (about 45 degrees to you). You've got to have good centerline control and follow his body movement.

BeiKongHui: It should work if he's bobbing and weaving IF you are fluid with your footwork. You don't want to stand still and trust your hands to catch everything coming in. Depending on how close he is and much power he's got coming in - I would use the same move you're describing (fak sau? biu sau?) if I'm not clinched. If I'm clinched, I'll use an upward elbow to guard my head, or he goes for the ribs, I'll drop my elbow down in a tan/chamber position.

I still say you HAVE to simultaneously nail him with a free limb to shut off his intended combo. That is also something I learned the hard way.



Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

[Martial Joe]

Nickle-I wasnt trying to offend you.You didnt seem offended anyway...

Popsider-I ment....what i said,its very easy to understand.You move on the inside and use your body to use a tan that will hold and a punch with the other hand.then you could follow up by a pak to their hook hand with the hand you punched him with and then hit him with the hand you stopped him with.If the fight lasted that long anyway.But you should follow up anyway just incase.

You know there are many different ways.This is just an easy one that works.If done corectly.

[greedy]

This ain't an easy question. Basically, the whole situation hinges on whether it is a hook thrown by a competent fighter, or a wild one thrown by a half assed wannabe.

Against the 'real' boxer, any reaction that requires any thought or is more than an instantaneous reaction is going to be too slow. A good boxer will not telegraph his actions and the strike will be too fast to simply react to. He will probably have good footwork, and so simply applying forward pressure won't work.

I just try to not be there when the hook happens. The average boxer will lead it with a jab or fake, and so footwork can enable you to put your body into a position where the hook cannot be thrown economically.

Go to a good, friendly gym, and test the different techniques against a real boxer. It will be good for your wing chun techniques to test it against someone who punches differently to the ordinary wing chun man.

Good Luck.

Cheers

[mun hung]

I have to agree with young Joe on this one. I believe if timed correctly with the proper footwork, both tan and pak still work - even with a tight hook. It all depends on how it's applied. I agree that not all tan da and pak da will work, but then again how are you applying them? And at what angle? Are you the one closing the distance or the boxer? Are you fighting offensively or defensively? It makes all the difference in the world. IMHO, in a fight it all boils down to a couple of things - skill and opportunity. And that goes both ways.

I just sparred with a boxer on Monday. I can honestly say that he could'nt get close enough to throw me one of those tight hooks because I never gave him the opportunity. I found that whenever he charged in with a flurry of punches - all I had to do was cover, take a step or two back to suck him in a little to get him comfortable enough to follow me in before stepping right back in to punch or/and kick him. Whenever we were in clinching distance - it was under my conditions and not his. We did this for about 15 minutes, and after his frustration and a bloody nose (oops!) we decided to quit.

I still don't understand what people have against sparring. Not only is it fun, but you learn alot from it. Just my humble opinion.

:)

[WCFish]

Tan/punch combo may work, but if you can dig up a copy of Mike Tyson knocking out Trevor Burbick, (not sure if I spelt that right), you will see a classic example of how a boxer with quick feet and a tight left hook would render your pak sau vertually useless.

[WongFeHung]

That hook does not have to be thrown from a clinch- you can jab,shuffling in, and hook off the jab(jow-sao) while twisting the body to develop sick power. I would either jam the shoulder, or raise my elbow to either guard the side of my head, and, if my motion was foward, the elbow smashes directly into the opponent/s face. I can also use the other elbow and strike laterally into the head as well.

[peehoo]

We learn to throw hooks because wc does have a problem dealing with them (i'm not slagging wc because we use a lot of the techs in our style).
a well trained practitioner can easily stop a wild swing hook.The tight hook (hand drops elbow comes up punch comes through), causes all sorts of problems. 1 its bloody quick
2 If your trained to use it you wont use the jab, cross, hook, comb cause its so bloody obvious
3 although its not traveling far if the hips are used it can generate a lot of power

The only way i know of dealing with them is to bring you elbow up, put you hand behind your head and take the punch on the bicep.(don t stop it with a stuck out elbow it will push your arm across face and open you up)
My sifu then recomends bring the same arm down on to the shoulder trapping the hooking arm outside yours, and seeing that theyve see the distance for a good hook throw on back with your other arm.

do without doing

[lotusleaf]

If the opponent is not clinching but just throwing a nice decent hook, arm is not at 90degrees), I'd personally just slip outside of his hooking arm, step in low, and fire a counter punch to the groin, and finish him off with a straight blast to the face and chest.

[Watchman]

If you want to see the kind of hook we're talking about go to: http://www.fighttraining.com/, click on "Video Techniques", scroll down to the half-way point on the frame and download the "Basic Hook Punch" clip.



One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[EmptyCup]

My high school had tons of hockey players and in fights all they did was grab with one arm (usually the left) and use a barrage of tight hooks with the other hand (usually the right)

There are no combinations to "set-up" and the arm's angle is 90 degrees.

I doubt a pak or tan would do any good. They never worked for me against them. Biu is the best bet when you have some distance, however when really close, you have no choice but to use pow sau. Either way, you must move your head back when blocking because you hand might not block one fully. And stance shifting is a must.

There's another post here that deals with this in detail as well...

[Sharky]

pai jarn? is that the move you were trying to describe bkh?

i went looking for this post cos i got my friend round and asked him to throw some haymakers, and i figured out myself that tan da doesn't work - sometimes it even helps them.

all i could do is either break teh rules of wc and stick an arm out (john wayne style, you know?) or attack is centre and hold out a firm tan.

obviously i could move in, as he was telgraphing when he was gonna throw the hook, he wasn't a trained boxer, but it was a slap in teh face (nearly literally) how a hook/haymaker *ISN'T* as easy to deal with as i thought.

If you guys want to carry this post on, i ain't gonna stop ya :)

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Anarcho]

Did you try bil sao, Sharky?

[Sharky]

do u mean bil sau to the eyes or whatever, or to his hooking arm? Bil sau to the eyes is just the same as a strike i guess, and wouldn't stop you getting hit unless you put up some barrier or move your entire body?

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Vankuen]

I think the bottom line is this: One has to be smarter then simply learning the mechanical aspects of any art. Yes, you have to understand structure, but there's and infinite amount of ways one can deal with any attack.

You have to make wing chun your own, and make work for you. Theres more than one way to perform any movement, so long as it stays within the core guidlines of course.

Wing chun, well any art to me, has to be dynamic and alive. All this talk of mechanical B.S is to me, an example of a dead art. And thats not how I think of wing chun at all. I may use a tan da to defend against a hook, then again I may use the concept of "jeet kuen" and intercept. I may decide to do the same with a kick. It just depends on where I am at the moment of the attack, both mentally and physically. Ive actually seen people turn into the hook using footwork and simply go with it using bong sau or wu sau. Point is, you make it work. Or you make it not work. Its all up to you.

"From one thing know ten thousand" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

"Loy lau hoi sung, lut sau jik chung"