Wong shung leung and Tsui Seung Tin methods...

[S.Teebas]

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here has trained in both the wong shung leung and Tsui Seung Tin linages of WC care to make any comments about the differences.... i hear that Wong sheung leung changed some of the idea to make it more efficent, and i have also heard that the chi sau is very compact compared to others...

any comments???

[rp]

Just based on my experience of training under WSL and training WITH a TST student.

The WSL way is much more direct - the objective is to hit/attack the opponent. My friend's method was to CONTROL the opponent.

TST's way is very powerful - just different approach.


rp

[S.Teebas]

Interesting... i myself am Tsui sheung tin liange, and have noticed the strong emphasis on control. I also admire the WSL method as an excellent interpretation of WC.

This raises the question of is power control??....and is control power??? or are they both the same... just different ways of achieving the same goal i guess :)

S.Teebas

[Martial Joe]

S.Teebas,Have you heard the stories about Tsui and the Tai Chi master?

[fei_jai]

Isn't easier to hit/strike through if you have control?? Control of what? control of the hands? or control of the opponent's balance.

If you have control of their hands, you have the upper hand, in that they cant really hit. But if you have control of their balance, not only cant they hit, but you can hit almost at will.

Dave

[S.Teebas]

Martial Joe,

I have not heard of these stories....fill me in dude!


S.Teebas

[rp]

My experience was that TST student (who was of many years) would over stick to the hands to keep them out of the way. This meant that opportunities to attack were lost.

The WSL way of thought advises that all actions are offensive. The purpose is to hit the opponent with continuous firm blows. Forward pressure is used to assist the reflex sensitivity for "lut sau jik cheung".

The forward pressure described by Armin in another post is not merely from the arms but from the stance and relative positions of the opponents. This pressure is like a coiled spring ready to explode towards the other guy.

The forward pressure does not mean we are leaning or bulling in.

My friend from TST's school has this power but when we trained I would think "s--t I'm f--ked" but because he was preoccupied with controlling my arm he missed the chances and I could recover and attack.

Control of the arms is different from controlling the body. The latter can be used to keep the opponent off balance if necessary by using strong balanced movement to disturb the other chaps centre. This concept can be misused if someone merely trys to play with an opponent who may recover and counter.

Controlling the arms can develop to fighting the arms where ones focus is centred on the enemy's arms and not the body. Basically the VT guy does a tremendous technique to the arm - say pak sao, the other chap is not phased and brushes the painful spanking away. Fighting the body would mean the same technique is focused through the arm at the opponent resulting in distrubed balance for follow up.

As the student becomes more advanced the arms are ignored and by timing and positioning attacks and "blocks" become one and are aimed at the body.

I think I've waffled a bit but to summarize both methods are kool and have the tools - its just that little bit at the end that makes the difference.

To summarize

[benny]

I think alot of vt people take sticky hands to literaly. you stick till there is an oportunity to strike. to many people play with the hands and not the person

[S.Teebas]

RP,
Thanks for your insight and your perpesctive. Im sure you know that each peson has different ideas/interpretations of WC...just like your friend.

It is true that we do concentrate on controle in Chi-Sau, but thats where the sticking ends. I know some guys in my class fight like machine guns fireing non-stop till the opponent is down when the sparing begins, and with all the emphasis on control during chi-sau practice...it's like your fighting a rock (by this i mean the structure of the WC guy...not how soft he/she is or the flow)... we strive for the optimal structural postition during chi sau, and dont find it necessary to hit the opponent (during chi-sau...not sparing)...as we both know that a strike is easily attainable.

Not to mention the different people studying under Tsui...they each have their own interpretations (not saying that this guys is wrong...just different)

Who was your friend studying under??

Fair enought... you are simply speaking from your experience about you and your friend..... but i would like to point out that we aim to disrupt the opponents ballance in every movement, aiming for the centre of gravity. We dont try to move their hands around...to be honest after chi sauing with someone i am not even aware of what my hands/body was doing, just responding to their energy while attacking their centre. (using whole body).

I think our ideas are a lot more similar than you might think.. Just traing is different. I know you WSL guys like to fight! :) In the future i would like to train with some guys from the WSL linage .....i have heard many good things about Barry Lee in particular. But for now i should concentrate on what is infront of me.

Good luck in your training for the future.

S.Teebas

[benny]

well my sigung is Barry lee and he is amazing.
just a question but what d you mean when you say
"and dont find it necessary to hit the opponent (during chi-sau...not sparing"
thats what you do it for. arent you training your body not to hit when you have the oppertunity. the whole point of chi sa is to program certain responses to the appropriate force/action.

[fei_jai]

During chi sau, you can be working on different things, such as structure, focus...

Just because you can sometimes feel a gap in your opponent, it's not necessary to hit through. Being able to feel gaps is good, automatically hitting through is the next step. Better to train the arms to be sensitive to everything, directions of force etc. By *trying* to hit through everytime, isn't always good for chi sau development. Sometimes it's better to work on your structure, moving your structure, relaxing in your motions. Even concentrating on getting a particular motion right.

The main emphasis is not training to hit through, it's training to feel... Once you can feel, you can do whatever.

Dave

[WCK]

With regard to TST lineage:
I dont think in TST lineage the students are preoccupied with forward force, because you are suppose to use your whole body structure.

People who are not using their structure to do chi sau will be thinking about forward force, and this might account for the 'loss of the attack'.
If you are well positioned and using the correct structure that is absorbing your opponents force, then you should have no problem in sparring situation.
Chi sau so follow this 'there is force, but then there is no force'. This idea is simple if you have practice chi sau for a long time.

[fei_jai]

I'm in the TST lineage, and forward force is something we are almost constantly preoccupied with.

However, our forward force is generated using our stance, structure, angles etc. Mentally projecting our body mass through our structure and into our opponents centre.

Dave

[S.Teebas]

Benny,
When a senior trains with a junior he doesn't go as hard as he can because he can...if this were the case what would be the advantage for the junior???...he would just get the crap beaten out of him and not learn anything (well this is our thoughts anyway).

Although this would be an example of restraining one's self from training for real life implementation, This is simply a curtusy (cant spell??) not a weekness in holding back. I guess the same analogy can be taken to as why us guys chi sau this way (not hitting at every opportunity)... Im not saying that this other guy was better than you RP...its juts the way we train, we see or feel a potential hit, and as you said it like "fu(k, i could get nailed here" we know it ..the other guy knows it so we have nothing to prove by throwing the punch...just the way we train, i guess it's a school thing. The guys in my school say that this way the other guy get a chance to work on his chi sau instead of getting worrying about getting hit..this way we use chi sau to train and progress. But we still have the feeling of real fighting when we spar, and i guarantee that sh!t loads of punches get exchanged when we spar. :)

Im not at all saying that if you train the other way that it is bad.... it's simply the perspective that our school takes when we train. (and we all have the oportunity to choose the way we train).

Hope this answers your question without pi$ anyone off. (hard to do these days)

S.Teebas

[benny]

we have two school in newcastle and the other is a tst/ jim fung/toni Bardakos and both our teachers are friends so we train with each other often and i have found that they hit just like us at any opportunity.
training and not hitting a junior to learn techniques I understand but that what you learn the traps for and once sifu thinks you can do it you do chi sao. the tempo is ajusted to fit each person but true chi-sao is fast and hard.
and if they are worried about being hurt how do they fight.
"if your afraid to be hit you will be hit"
old ving tsun saying ;)