Wong shung leung and Tsui Seung Tin methods...

[fei_jai]

I'd disagree that true chi sao is fast and hard...
I've actually found it more beneficial to do chi sao slowly. This way, you have more control of your focus and force direction throughout the entire movement. I'd say true chi sao is maintaining focus, structure, forward force, relaxation, stance, EVERYTHING. Doesn't matter how slow/fast or hard/soft it is.

Dave

[rp]

Dear Teebas, My friend studied for 10 years under TST himself. In fact I think he was better than me I am just commenting on the difference in technique.

If you don't throw the punch, you may be misled into thinking the attack is easy. In fact your opponnent can counter and so on...

Not every opportunity in chi sau will be fulfilled and the skills you develop will train you to handle difficulties if someone blocks your attack.

By hitting at every opportunity we are making a habit. To pull/hold the attack is not the habit you want to develop for reality.

I also know other TST students who were mean fighters but I had not trained with them. I think their way is good - but I prefer WSL (of course I am biased)!! :D

[fei_jai]

When I hear the phrase "to hit at every opportunity" I understand it to mean when you feel a gap, hit through. This, to me, really implies that you *try* and hit through, which in turn implies a certain amount of effort. When I do my chi sau, I always try and make it effortless, whilst maintaining forward force, structure, focus etc. I'm not thinking about hitting through, or even feeling for gaps.

The hit comes through as a result of proper focus and forward force. It's not something you have to think about. When I "roll", I can sometimes feel gaps in my opponent, but I dont actively take it. The reason is, that to first feel a gap, then strike through it, is (to me) the wrong thing to do. If there is a gap, your hands should "fall" through it to strike your opponent. No thought processes about "Oh, gap! Strike!"

Dave

Just for the sake of clarification, as far as I understand about TST's method, the whole idea of controlling in sticking hand does not refer to controlling the opponent's arms. The idea is to control the opponent's balance. The two are different.
In my opinion, once a person's balance is captured, he will not be able to exert any power, by that time, he will become an easy victim. I know a darn good TST's Wing Chun practitioner who is able to control a person's balance upon contact.
This to me makes more sense because the main objective of sticking hands is to learn how to feel, react, listen, control, and respond according.
The ability to hit is secondary because once you can capture a person's balance, you can hit him at will.
Only this way can both parties have a constructive chi sao session, don't get me wrong, taking the initiative to hit occassionally does NO harm.
Nevertheless, chi sao is chi sao, it is conducted in a training platform, freestyle chi sao or sparring is another different issue.

Disclaimer: The explanation above does not intend to belittle any approach or expound any approach, just to highligh some ideas which I believe is part of TST's Wing Chun system.

[S.Teebas]

Benny...i must have used the wrong words if the impression you got was that we are afraid to be hit. I believe we use chi sau as a tool for really honing all our skills such as structure, relaxation, using the centre and focus...all good points that fei jai raised. I guess we figure that there is so much of this to learn we want to devote as much time to perfecting our skills as we can.

If you feel that hard and fast chi sau is the best way for you...then go for it! :) It all boils down to what you think is the best method for progressing in WC. As i said before we do chi sau to hone our skills and to work on what stage of development in WC we are at...we also do chi-sau sparing, and sparing in it's self.... so i guess we still cover all the angels.

I dont train at a jim fung school, although i did for a few years... my current training is very different to theirs. I wonder if you could possibly tell me an out line of what you guys do in a typical WSL-system class??

S.Teebas

[WCK]

I think you are right, if you dont practice the hard way (chi sau) then you will be less prepared if the real thing comes along.

Chi sau should be practiced through sparring (of course this is for advance students), you start to learn real chi sau when you get hit.

Getting hit is not neccessarily a bad thing, it helps you to react to the movements and the next time the body will automatically defend a similar attack.

With regards to fei jia's comment:
I am in TST lineage as well, and initially the chi sau training is based on forward force, but later on the forward force is no longer the physical force of your arms. Forward force is really your mental determination to strike the particular point. When you have attain this level it is so easy to coordinate the body. preoccupation = anticipation will be gradually eliminated.

This is my opinion.

[Troy]

tell us of these stories

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

[fei_jai]

Yes, I know...

Forward force is never physically pushing forward with the arms. I think I mentioned it as a mental focus... but that's exactly what I was saying.... well... maybe not directly..

Dave

[tiger_1]

for W.C.L.style im mean is that fast and penetration is have that big speed so onthers texnic cant be real defence again him . just 3 texnic in fight have W.C.L. and chi sao of 9 texnic . - just my opinion friendly tiger_1 ;)

/

[Martial Joe]

I just watched a Wong Shun Leung tape today at my sifues house.When he did Chum Kui I wanted to touch myself in naughty placs.(not realy) but it was so impressive!


Joe Kavey

[ATENG]

hey martial joe why you holding back on the TST and taichimaster stories?

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Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[popsider]

Does anyone know where you can get the wsl tape in the UK? I've been after it for a while.

[dave the dragon]

i would also like to know where in the uk to aquire this tape c'mon spill the beans!!

[S.Teebas]

Yeah, i wouldn't mind seeing this video myself...Hey "benny" or "vingtsunstudent" im pretty sure u guys are in newcastle (NSW)...does your school carry the tape???

[jameswebsteruk]

Hello chaps,
The only WSL tape I know of (Correct me if Im wrong) is "Wing Chun: The Science of InFighting".

You can get it from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...605256-3745665

And if you order now, you can get it by Mothers Day! Thats for all of you with Bad Muthas... :p