Jow Gar and Hung Gar

[Octavius]

Could someone tell me what the differences between the two arts are? By this, I mean that I already understand the back story behind Jow Gar (combo of HG + N.Shaolin) so have an idea of the similarities, but I'm not quite getting my head around the actual differences between the two. Are there differences in the principles and theories between them (i.e. different ways of enerating power?), or just technique (i.e. southern kicking style vs. northern kicking style?) or something like that? Thanks for any input.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Jow ga shares alot of the same striking principles as Hung gar but utilizes more complex circular footwork...power generation principles are the same

[David Jamieson]

rm-

do you see similarities in teh forms between jow ga and choy li fut or do you think the form are more similar to hung ga?
i have only seen one or two jow ga forms and they look more choy li fut to me than hung ga, but i do see some similarity.

spin? you are a jow ga player are you not?

cheers

[Fu-Pow]

They call Jow Ga "Hung Tao Choy Mei" or head of Hung and tail of Choy.

But which Choy, which Hung?

Choy Ga? One of the five family styles of Southern China ie Hung, Mak, Lau, Li and Choy?

Choy Li Fut? As in Choy Fook (aka Scar head, Green Grass Monk)?

Or is the Choy in Choy Li Fut the same Choy as in Choy Ga?

Does the Hung in Hung Ga refer to one of the five family styles or does it refer to the Hung Moon society? Or is it a completely different Hung?

This all gets very complicated very fast because we are talking about the history of bandits, secret societies, religious institutions and revolutions. Furthermore, as westerners we have a language barrier to overcome.

All I can say about Southern styles (ie 5 family styles, Hung Kuen, Jow Ga, Hung Fut, Choy Li Fut, etc.) is that they seem to share certain elements:

Circular, powerful movements, strong stances, explosive "strong" power.

Compared to the Northern styles that "appear" softer, are more lengthened, are more flowery, etc.

Even these are general impressions and not true across styles.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
rm-

do you see similarities in teh forms between jow ga and choy li fut or do you think the form are more similar to hung ga?
spin? you are a jow ga player are you not?

cheers

Yes i see similarities between the two, Jow ga forms are a combination of both but jow ga is more similair to choy li fut than it is to hung gar in the beginning we very close or similair to hung gar having only a few forms 1 or 2 that are very close to hung gar.

Am I a jow ga player? yes......am I currently practicing in a formal school at the moment? no

[David Jamieson]

fp-

lol. yes, which indeed. and here's an even more interesting thing.
When I was speaking with a friend we started talking about Hung.

Now, there is Hung which means "red" and there is Hung that means "big" and there is Hung that is a surname.

So three meanings for Hung! (not all the same character, just pronounced the same)

Anyway, he also told me that it is pretty hard to find many people with the surname Hung anymore. It's not one of the more common surnames anymore.

But then, there is always this guy

rm- you stop training because of scheduling? Or did your school shut down? wtf man?

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
fp-

rm- you stop training because of scheduling? Or did your school shut down? wtf man?

LMAO nah man the school didn't shut down, my schedule is pretty screwed up with work, school, and single parent syndrome

[mysteri]

Originally posted by Octavius
Could someone tell me what the differences between the two arts are? By this, I mean that I already understand the back story behind Jow Gar (combo of HG + N.Shaolin) so have an idea of the similarities, but I'm not quite getting my head around the actual differences between the two. Are there differences in the principles and theories between them (i.e. different ways of enerating power?), or just technique (i.e. southern kicking style vs. northern kicking style?) or something like that? Thanks for any input.

as said before, jow ga is a synthesis of hung ga, choy ga, and bak siu lum. hung ga is the mother system off of which everything else is built/added. different lineages may vary, but in my lineage, we considered a southern longhand system. we get our stances from hung ga(and some footwork), hands skills from hung ga, footwork from choy ga(we don't have choy hands) and some sporadic northern flavor forms or techniques from bak siu lum. as far as my sifu told me, we descend from wong fei hung lineage of hung ga. also, the choy ga is the same choy ga which choy li fut comes from.

as a little insight, a lot of people consider original hung kuen to basically be nam siu lum ji(south shaolin temple) gung fu. remiscent of a lot of southern systems are "short hand wide horse." it is said that WFH incorporated longhand techniques into hung ga from lama pai(a tibetan gung fu). therefore, hung ga could hence forth broaden their gung fu range of combat. this (IMO) helped popularize them as a very powerful, formidable fighting system.

in my trainin, i spent the first few years focusing on what i would consider "hung ga-like" training. my fourth year, my sifu suddenly emphasized that the footwork we'd learned before be much swifter and focused on it more(choy). i think the "hung tao choy mei" can also be taken as "hung early, choy later." this is from my own limited training and experience though.

finally, have u seen jow ga performed? i'm sure some people on here can point u to many different vids of jow ga being performed. for me, a lot of what i see looks like hung ga in the beginning(much dynamic tension, little or no footwork). then suddenly, much dynamic footwork patterns, short and long techniques, high and low. forms i've seen like this are sei ping kuen, moi fa kuen(northern and southern), maan ji kuen, siu hung kuen, chai jong(if i remember correctly), fu hak seurng ying kuen, fu pao seurng ying kuen, sup ying kuen, and sup ji kuen. i'm sure there are others, but i can't think of them right now.

my siu hung kuen(the last form i learned) actually fits this pattern perfectly. if u compare a HG form like gung ji fok fu kuen and siu hung kuen, u'll notice they start similarly with much dynamic tension(though my siu hung kuen is narrow horse in beginning). then, after the first part of the form, u'll notice siu hung kuen's footwork picks up considerably much more than GGFFK and speed is emphasized more. better?? by no means. do u prefer vanilla or chocolate?

[mysteri]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
fp-

lol. yes, which indeed. and here's an even more interesting thing.
When I was speaking with a friend we started talking about Hung.

Now, there is Hung which means "red" and there is Hung that means "big" and there is Hung that is a surname.

So three meanings for Hung! (not all the same character, just pronounced the same)

Anyway, he also told me that it is pretty hard to find many people with the surname Hung anymore. It's not one of the more common surnames anymore.

But then, there is always this guy

rm- you stop training because of scheduling? Or did your school shut down? wtf man?

its also been noted before that, if we go along with the "jee shim sim see-->'hung' hei guen" story, the name "hung" was used here as a pseudonym to mean "heroic" in support of anti-ching sentiment. so "hung kuen" or "heroic fist" was what was being spread. the "red fist"(hong chuan) to my knowledge is bak siu lum(like xiao hong chuan-small red fist/daa(?) hong chuan- big red fist). however, i'm not sure of what "red" is symbolic? but then, everyhing in chinese is symbolic right? if we're confused, then they've done their job well

[Fu-Pau]

Yup... what Mysteri said...

though I think that the balance between hung and choy in Chow Gar (Jow Ga) is about even. The emphasis in some forms leans more to hung than to choy though, and vice versa (even though all forms have elements of both and a touch of bak siu lum)

[mysteri]

sihing, i agree that the forms all have elements of hung and choy with a touch of bak siu lum.

since i am still novice in my jow ga, i guess i wouldn't know what kind of choy ga i have encoutered much past the footwork and some ground skills. then again, i can't say that i've seen any good choy ga before. what kind of things would i be lookin out for that are reminiscent of choy ga? to my knowledge, we don't use choy kiu sau faht. maybe ur referring to kicking skills?

also, one thing that i noticed is that we use some shorthand bridges which are like SPM(actually they derive from mantis). are these kinds of things in ur lineage as well(jiu sau, gort sau?) or maybe this is somethin my sifu(or whoever trained him) might have incorporated into our cirriculum? jus makin curious correlations.. thanx in advance.

[illusionfist]

I've seen a bit of Jow Gar and it all depends on the player really. Some people have more of a Hung Kuen flare, others have more of a CLF. I've never seen a perfect balance. In all honesty, i don't think anybody could achieve a perfect balance of the two.

The faht however seems to revolve around more of a CLF-esque structure using Hung Kuen power. This can be seen in Jow Gar's use of "wheel punches". There is definitely a degree of bin ging, or whipping power that is used, but not to the effect that a CLF player would employ.

Somethings are blatantly CLF, like the "small tiger block' sequence in Siu Fuk Fu Kuen. This sequence is clearly taken from CLF's use of the chyun kiu, got sau, and fu jow. The Chyun Kiu and Got Sau is a fundamental sequence in CLF. However, the structure might be CLF derived, but there is definitely a "taint' of Hung Kuen ging and bridge hand usage.

Other things are not so cut and dry, such as the half step that is very common in Jow Gar. Some could argue that this is a play on CLF's usage of biu ma, whereas others could argue that it's a play on Hung Kuen's usage of siu bo, or mouse stepping.

Peace

[mysteri]

thanx for ur input, illusionfist. maybe u can help to elaborate on some things...

Orinigally posted by illusionfist:
...There is definitely a degree of bin ging, or whipping power that is used, but not to the effect that a CLF player would employ.

care to elaborate a bit? i think i may know, but would rather not assume...

...Somethings are blatantly CLF, like the "small tiger block' sequence in Siu Fuk Fu Kuen. This sequence is clearly taken from CLF's use of the chyun kiu, got sau, and fu jow. The Chyun Kiu and Got Sau is a fundamental sequence in CLF. However, the structure might be CLF derived, but there is definitely a "taint' of Hung Kuen ging and bridge hand usage.

would u mind to help with some terminology to keep us all on the same page? i'm reading chuen kiu "drilling bridge", got sau "slicing bridge." no? so do u feel these bridges from CLF derive from choy ga? could be a common link.(i'm tryin to think of the sequence u speak of in small tiger)

...Other things are not so cut and dry, such as the half step that is very common in Jow Gar. Some could argue that this is a play on CLF's usage of biu ma, whereas others could argue that it's a play on Hung Kuen's usage of siu bo, or mouse stepping.

aren't darting horse and mouse stepping basically the same thing? is this what u refer to as half stepping(foward slide- step/shuffle)? in my school, we refer to half step as in "sei ping baat foon ma"(half-step horse). we should try to put our terms on the same level to avoid confusion, huh

The faht however seems to revolve around more of a CLF-esque structure using Hung Kuen power.

::nod:: we're in agreeance. i would probably say that one way to distinguish CLF from jow ga is the way the two "float, sink, swallow, spit." i think the different ways/times we root is prolly different as well. jus some of my own observations. looking foward to more input!

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by mysteri
thanx for ur input, illusionfist. maybe u can help to elaborate on some things...



care to elaborate a bit? i think i may know, but would rather not assume...



would u mind to help with some terminology to keep us all on the same page? i'm reading chuen kiu "drilling bridge", got sau "slicing bridge." no? so do u feel these bridges from CLF derive from choy ga? could be a common link.(i'm tryin to think of the sequence u speak of in small tiger)



aren't darting horse and mouse stepping basically the same thing? is this what u refer to as half stepping(foward slide- step/shuffle)? in my school, we refer to half step as in "sei ping baat foon ma"(half-step horse). we should try to put our terms on the same level to avoid confusion, huh



::nod:: we're in agreeance. i would probably say that one way to distinguish CLF from jow ga is the way the two "float, sink, swallow, spit." i think the different ways/times we root is prolly different as well. jus some of my own observations. looking foward to more input!

Essentially the bin ging is enough to be a little bit more than what a Hung Kuen practitioner would utilize during a gwa/sow sequence, but there is enough reserve energy within the move that the sow choy does not cross the person's centerline (like how a CLF player would- i.e. massive amount of follow through). So it's almost a kin to hung kuen's "gold star hook" technique.

Chyun Kiu is "inch bridge", albeit used in it's typical fashion denoting "penetrating". Got Sau is "cutting hand". I couldn't really comment on them coming from Choy Ga or not. I haven't really seen much Choy Ga so I couldn't say. If I was to guess, it's a play on moves found in Hung Kuen- just done with a different ging. In the form it's probably the most repeated bridging sequence, so i'd say it's pretty integral.

Biu Ma and Siu Bo are very different. Biu Ma darts in, so it is a very quick move that typically overwhelms the opponent. Siu Bo on the other hand can be used in a variety of ways, most of which are very sneaky. You can also have combination of grinding and sliding with siu bo, which can also differentiate things. Sei Ping Baht Fun Ma can be used in a variety of different ways that can employ both biu ma or siu bo, or both in conjunction with each other.

Tun To Fou Chum is a hard model to use to differentiate both CLF and Jow Gar. In this regard they can be very similar. It also depends if you are talking about breathing (hei gung) or are you talking about bridging? Both present their problems as a description.

Peace

[Fu-Pau]

Mysteri,

I wasn't talking about the footwork or kicking per se, although I would say that the 'ke lum po' - wu lung bai mei and siew yeng bai mei are probably more Choy influenced than Hung. I was actually thinking of the hands and typical Choy gar techniques such as 'bing choi', 'lok choi', 'kam choi' etc.

Also I would not have thought that shifting (half steps) were particularly Hung or Choy... rather just southern kung fu.

As far as SPM... I have seen (and occasionally felt) Sifu use some SPM-ish like techniques before in sparring. But I can't quite think of any set that you find it in. (mind you there are many Chow Gar sets that I do not know yet).

A good illustration of a form that contains a good balance of Hung and Choy would be 'maan ji'. The focus on the stances in this set is low strong Hung gar, as well as a lot of the punching, so in outward appearance the set would appear to be very Hung influenced. However when you consider the amount of shifting, the use of kam choi, bing choi, gwa choi combined with gwaang (backfist strike to the groin) and the subtle interaction between strong short range techniques and explosive long range (penetrating) techniques within combinations, you can see the Choy influence coming through to compliment the Hung.

Illusion,

Still not sure what part of 'siew fok fu' you are referring to... (darn terminology!)