Jow Gar and Hung Gar

[Fu-Pow]

Man!! Your guys romanizations suck!!!

[mysteri]

fu-pow,

ahhh, glad u showed up! now we have a CLF guy that can help out a bit... besides, when u've got an aussie, a black male, and a texan tryin to make english out of chinese... welllll!!

illusionfist-

since neither of us have seen much good choy ga, its hard to know some things for sure. perhaps (CLF) fu-pow can help us out a bit? i only notice (visual) difference btwn jow ga and CLF longhand from the ma. i think overall, we emphasize different type of sink/root in the footwork. i'm not sure about the internal tun to fo chum(never been taught TTFC as a 'model' in jow ga).

i can't recall ur 'mouse-stepping' bein used in (our) jow ga either. we have "triangle stepping" and "snake stepping" as some real basic types. maybe there's a correlation.

(chow gar)fu-pau-

i agree that half-steps are pretty common in nam siu lum gung fu. though i don't know the form, i can also see ur illustration of "maan ji." good illustration. we REALLY need to start beefin up on our technology so we can share imagesm, audio and video bout this stuff, huh?

[illusionfist]

mysteri,

The Chyun Kiu, Got Sau sequence is also repeated in Siu Hung Kuen if i'm not mistaken. Just change out the fu jow with a ping choi this time.

So basically what you have is what appears to be a crane wing block, a circular block downward into a grab (all with the same hand) and a simple reverse punch (ping choi). The "crane wing" block is the Chyun Kiu, the circular block downward is the Got Sau.

*edit*
Actually, now that I think about it, the whole sequence is a chyun, got, ping choi that is repeated and not a fu jow. The fu jow was a rare variation that I've seen, but most lineages play it with a ping choi. So hopefully this will clear up a bit of the confusion.

This sequence is obviously important because it's repeated in many of the forms.

Peace

[CLFNole]

I think its a misconception that CLF comes from Choy Gar. Choy is for Choy Fook and is not associated with Choy Gar but rather the Shaolin Temple.

Much of the CLF fistwork was influenced from Choy Fook, legwork from Lay Yau San and palming from (well lets not go there) buddhist influences.

Of the five famous southern family styles: hung, lau, choy, lay & mok. According to some history Lay Yau San was the founder of Lay Gar but Choy Fook was not the founder of Choy Gar.

Having never seen Choy Gar as it is quite rare the founder could have had common lineage with Choy Fook. Choy Fook's teaching come from Monk Gok Yuen and Bak Yuk Fung.

I have heard many times that some of the Jow brothers learned CLF. Maybe people claim the Choy Gar Hung Gar mix instead of the CLF influence for political reasons, who knows. CLF has northern influences, which could explain Jow Gar's northern influence as well. Jow Gar does not resemble Bak Siu Lum at all (northern shaolin - the style of Ku Yu Cheong).

Just something to think about.

To me though Jow Gar is about the mid point between CLF and Hung Gar. Not quite the same power as CLF and not the same as Hung Gar, but rather mixes the best of each somewhat.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

CLF Nole-

That was what I was trying to get at in my post from before. Some people claim CLF is Choy Ga + Lee Ga. I don't think that is correct. If you started a style and your surname was Choy or Lee then anything you taught might have the name Choy Ga or Lee Ga. In other words, there might have been hundreds of Choy Ga and Lee Ga styles in Southern China. Not just one of each!

As to the combination you guys are describing it sounds like

Left Chyun Kiuh (penetrating bridge), Left Puhn Kiuh (downward and inward circular block), Left Lah (grab), Right Ping Cheuih (level strike) as we would say in CLF (correct Yale romanization BTW ).

But hard to tell without seeing it. Too bad we don't all have webcams.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
CLF Nole-


As to the combination you guys are describing it sounds like

Left Chyun Kiuh (penetrating bridge), Left Puhn Kiuh (downward and inward circular block), Left Lah (grab), Right Ping Cheuih (level strike) as we would say in CLF (correct Yale romanization BTW ).

But hard to tell without seeing it. Too bad we don't all have webcams.

Yer on the money Fu Pow. That's the technique.

Peace

[mysteri]

illusionfist-

ahhh! NOW i know what ur talkin about. i think in CLF they call one of their open-handed outside circular bridges "chuen nau." in my branch of jow ga, we call that repeated sequence "jiu sau"(dissolving hand), "gort sau"(cutting/slicing hand), "na sau"(grabbing hand). this sequence is repeated in all of our forms and yes it is most important. the "jiu sau" and "gort sau," however, come to us from SPM(according to my sifu). we do it a lil different than CLF and SPM. actually, they're both used a lot of different ways. the "na sau" looks similar to "pak sau" of wing chun, but we use is as a soft bridge to come over-down-grab(one motion), but its unlike fu jow or ying jow. glad we got that clarified, u are certainly correct about its importance.

CLFNole-

thanx for ur input on the matter. ur theories make sense and none of us do really know for sure. all we can go by is what we've been taught and how we "play" our gung fu. i think if more choy ga were to start sprouting up, then we could definitely clear up a lot of mystery. and u r correct, jow ga does not resemble bak siu lum at all. however, there are some northern forms that some people like to practice and incorporate into their gung fu. i guess they like the variety. me, i jus like whatever works, is simple and is not unnatural.

[illusionfist]

Mysteri,

Yeah, lots of words to describe the same stuff. I stayed away from using the term "poon kiu" because I've heard it as "got sau" more- even between CLF, Hung Kuen, and Jow Gar camps. So I figured it would be more common of a term.

I find it interesting that you say this sequence is actually from SPM. I can't see the SPM in it at all. The shape doesn't seem conducive to their type of ging. Is this where you were thinking the Tun To Fou Chum came in? If so, I'd have to disagree because that type of usage is not present in the way Jow Gar uses that faht.

Peace

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by illusionfist
Mysteri,

Yeah, lots of words to describe the same stuff. I stayed away from using the term "poon kiu" because I've heard it as "got sau" more- even between CLF, Hung Kuen, and Jow Gar camps. So I figured it would be more common of a term.

I find it interesting that you say this sequence is actually from SPM. I can't see the SPM in it at all. The shape doesn't seem conducive to their type of ging. Is this where you were thinking the Tun To Fou Chum came in? If so, I'd have to disagree because that type of usage is not present in the way Jow Gar uses that faht.

Peace

My Sifu uses the term "Got" (sound is way back in the throat) sometimes.It is for a downward and OUTWARD block, not downward and INWARD like Puhn Kiuh. Also Puhn Kiuh is more of a soft blocking and trapping technique where as "Got" implies more like hitting something out of the way. As far as I know as far as application the idea of "Puhn Kiuh" and "Got Sau" could be used interchangibly although the emphasis might be a little different. "Got" literally means something like "move out of the way" so it could be applied to many different movements. In our Saap Ji Kau Da form in the opening movements we have a sequence called "Got An Daan Chaan Jeung" or "Left Block Down(and out) Right Single Cutting Palm."

It's always interesting to compare styles.

[mysteri]

Originally posted by illusionfist
Mysteri,

Yeah, lots of words to describe the same stuff. I stayed away from using the term "poon kiu" because I've heard it as "got sau" more- even between CLF, Hung Kuen, and Jow Gar camps. So I figured it would be more common of a term.

I find it interesting that you say this sequence is actually from SPM. I can't see the SPM in it at all. The shape doesn't seem conducive to their type of ging. Is this where you were thinking the Tun To Fou Chum came in? If so, I'd have to disagree because that type of usage is not present in the way Jow Gar uses that faht.

Peace

illusionfist, the way that fu-pow describes the sequence(chuen-gort-la) is the way that we do it in my lineage. as for the "sequence" comin from mantis, i think u misunderstood my words. only the "jiu sau" and "gort sau" as far as i know derive from mantis. lemme try to elaborate a bit.

jiu sau- from natural stance(like wuji), right fist is chambered and left guarding hand is across the body(like "hiding the fist"). jiu sau comes from right middle gate in an outside motion past the face and does not go past left shoulder-line. this motion pivoted on the left elbow(which of course remains sunken). the fingers are open and relaxed and shoulde make a straight line across the top of the wrist with the forearm. the thumb, for the most part, is pointin toward ur opponent/bridge. this is our outside circular dissolving hand(jiu sau).

gort sau- if we go from the previous jiu sau illustration, gort sau could go as follows... from left jiu sau, move the bride in front of the center line with elbow still sunk and the four fingers should all be along the centerline toward opponent/bridge(thumb foward). using sinking energy(and yiu ging, if u like), the fingers point downward creating a hook along the outer(left) wrist and the pinky finger. as the elbow and forearm ride along the body, this bridge moves from upper gate to middle gate by "slicing/cutting" downward(usually along the centerline) finishing in an outward arc and stopping at the (left) hip(fingers out about 45deg). i'm not sure how "gort sau" is used in CLF so i can't comment. poon kiu, as far as i know, doesn't look anything like our gort sau.

hopefully my illustration was vivid enough for u all to capture;, keep in mind also, however, that these two examples are jus two common primary ways to apply this technique. the "shape" of the hands definitely do look like what u'd see in SPM. can't compare their ging and faht cuz i'm really not familiar enough w/ SPM to be sure. as far as swallow/spit/float/sink, i guess i really shouldn't comment on the way its done in jow ga since i've never been introduced to it formally in jow ga yet. what i was refering to more was in the footwork and rooting. in my own opinion,from watching CLF and comparing it to what i practice, it feels like jow ga still is prolly more heavy-footed in its footwork whereas CLF still seems to be much lighter and mobile with the footwork. i would attribute that to the hung essence of jow ga. but this is from my own limited experience and observation of course.

hope i made sense!

[illusionfist]

Gotcha.

Peace

[Fu-Pau]

CLFNole,
I have seen a couple of websites that say that Chow Gar is a mix of Hung Gar and CLF. But I think that is a misconception. Usually that assumption is made (IMO) because CLF is better known than Choy Gar and the people that say that Chow Gar contains CLF are not really aware of the distinction between CLF and Choy Gar. Usually the histories that refer to Chow Gar containing CLF are inaccurate in other respects too.
As far as it being 'political' to claim Choy Gar instead of CLF, I just can't see that. Why would Chow Lung and his brothers (or their students) have wanted to hide a connection to CLF? What purpose would that have served?
Anyway, Chow Gar's history is not that old. My Sifu was taught by Chow Biu, and he tells me that Chow Lung learned Choy Gar. What we do 'know' is that Chow Lung learned from Choy Kau in Siu Hing County. I don't know where you could find a Choy Gar family tree to find reference, or even if Choy Kau would necessarily show up on it anyway? It would be interesting to know if Choy Kau of Siu Hing County appears in any CLF lineages?

Mysteri,
I'm with Illusionfist regarding jiu sau. I can't really see the SPM link there. Also jiu sau is in every Chow Gar hand set that I can think of (and some weapons too. eg 'seung tau kwan', and 'seung gaarp tan' - both in the opening ceremony). it is probably one of Chow Gar's most important blocks.
I can't recall for certain (so don't quote me) but I'm pretty sure I've seen jiu sau in a Hung Gar VCD from China that I saw a couple of months ago.

I don't think that I have seen Bak Siu Lum live. However I did see a webpage recently (which I now regret not book-marking) that had photos of various postures/techniques, quite a few of which looked very much like Chow Gar. I suppose you can't always tell a lot from still photos though... but looked very reminiscent of 'lohan kune'.

cheers

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pau:

I am by no means any kind of authority on Jow Gar. The thing I wonder about though is that, as you said Jow Gar is a relatively new style. That being said you don't see any Choy Gar around now so why the drop off of that style so quick. Maybe it is popular in China still. During the time of Jow Lung and his brothers there was definately some kind of link with buk sing CLF, as a number of sifus learned both styles.

Neither of us have seen Choy Gar, however knowing CLF and having seen Jow Gar there are things seen in both as discussed earlier. When you get down to it all of the southern styles have common elements and likely borrowed from each other. Choy Gar is one of the 5 souther family styles so Jow Gar is likely Hung Gar and Choy Gar. I am not trying to change anyone's history.

Peace.

[Fu-Pau]

CLFNole

I'm no authority either all I know is my own school's lineage. I have read however that Kong On (an early sifu in the Bak Sing CLF lineage) had been a student of Chow Lung for 4 years. When Chow Lung passed away, Kong On went on and learned CLF and incorporated some Chow Gar into his lineage of Bak Sing CLF. (see Vince Lacey's web site).
I am not aware of any other Chow Gar / CLF connections... except that both styles flourished at the same time in HK and Canton.

cheers

[mysteri]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau

Mysteri,
I'm with Illusionfist regarding jiu sau. I can't really see the SPM link there. Also jiu sau is in every Chow Gar hand set that I can think of (and some weapons too. eg 'seung tau kwan', and 'seung gaarp tan' - both in the opening ceremony). it is probably one of Chow Gar's most important blocks.
I can't recall for certain (so don't quote me) but I'm pretty sure I've seen jiu sau in a Hung Gar VCD from China that I saw a couple of months ago.

I don't think that I have seen Bak Siu Lum live. However I did see a webpage recently (which I now regret not book-marking) that had photos of various postures/techniques, quite a few of which looked very much like Chow Gar. I suppose you can't always tell a lot from still photos though... but looked very reminiscent of 'lohan kune'.

cheers

fu_pau, i really don't know what to say. yes, jiu sau is in almost every form i've seen as well. but since i've not seen much SPM in person, i guess i can't really confirm. i do specifically remember my sifu pointin out to me before,"jiu sau and gort sau derive from mantis." at the time, i never really asked for specifics or clarity so i've always assumed it was SPM. he's performed other SPM techniques for us before(w/ phoenix eye fist) and to me i thought his open-handed techniques looked an awful lot like our jiu/gort. o well, i guess sometimes its jus okay to agree to disagree

as far as bak siu lum is concerned, i've seen this performed at tournaments and in person and to me, only a few of our forms(other than the completely northern ones) have what i would call a 'hint' of bak siu lum. i definitely think "hung tao choy mei" is a better representation of what i've practiced over the years if we're talkin about derivative. my sifu doesn't let on to care too much for much northern technique(but then again, he was raised in canton and hong kong, so go figure! ) i don't know lohan kuen and i've never actually seen it in my school, so i can't comment. have u ever seen a form called "shaolin iron shoe?" now THAT form is pretty interesting.