Larp Sao - Is it a thumbless grip in ALL lineages of wing chun?

[WCFighter]

Hi everyone,

I came across an interesting article :

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/arti...pan_wan01.html

It mentions that this particular lineage has different/more grabbing techniques/approaches than the Yip Man lineage.
(which is fine by me. )

They don't show pictures of these techniques, but since wing
chun has some crane aspects to it, I was just curious if
any lineages used fingers AND the thumb in their grabs.
(I trained a little in Flying White Crane Kung Fu with Sifu Lorne
Bernard in Montreal and we used to grab with the fingers and thumb. Kinda like in this picture here :
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=132
)

In my lineage we are advised not to grab with the thumb. And searching on articles
on this matter on the net, a lot of people usually advise against
using the thumb in a grab.


I am curious to know what wing chunners feel/know about this
matter.

[kj]

FWIW, we are among those advised to never use the "tiger's mouth. Controlling, yes; grabbing, never. Thumb is along side the fingers or slightly tucked as appropriate, rather than in an opposing, C-shaped, or strength-dependent grip. That's the aim, anyway.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

KJ, as per usual, has Lap Sao'd the correct.

Typically both variations exist for a reason and each has different advantages/disadvantages (yup, everything has a little of both), which allows each to work better under different circumstances/conditions.

No thumb allows for a strong grip. With thumb allows for more angles of control and sensation.

[Shadowboxer]

We are taught not to grab with the thumb because it can be trapped and broken quickly or it can be torqued in a bad sense when someone rotates into kwun sao from your attempted ding jarn as you punch back at them.

[KingMonkey]

We use the thumb, which bearing in mind humans evolved an opposable digit to solve this sort of a mechanical problem makes sense IMHO.

[WCFighter]

Thanks for your replies.

Rene Ritchie:

So based on your research, you are saying that both types of larp saos exist and are
both valid, depending on what you are trying to accomplish?


Shadowboxer:

Can you give an example of the thumb being trapped?
I have heard of this disadvantage, but noone really showed me
how this is accomplished.

For example:

If I am larping with one hand to attack the person's balance, and
punching him in the head with the other, how can my thumb be trapped?



As for fingers getting broken, I think that other wing chun techniques can get your fingers broken IF they are done wrong.
For example, if your tan sao fingers go right into the oncoming fist, or the garn sao fingers go right into a mid level round kick. Both situations are examples of techniques done incorrectly which
have led to broken fingers. Why are people so worried about larp
sao thumbs helping the grip? I can understand that when counter-attacking a round punch, a practicioner would want to
do the larp with the meat of the hand first, and then adjust the thumb afterwards. But during an attack (Lop/Punch), when the opponent is not doing anything at that millisecond, why not use the thumb for a better grip ( his arms may be sweaty) ?

I have found that larping an opponent's sweaty arm without
the thumb can lead to a loss of grip. Wouldn't this be a good time
to use a larp with the thumb involved as opposed to not using
the thumb?

[Phil Redmond]

I was taught years ago to never use the thumb. But know I've learned that it depends on the circumstance. So I do use the thumb at times.

[Spark]

I was taught with no thumbs, but a collegue of mine larps with the thumbs and it is very effective, so I would say that like others have said, it probably depends on the situation and to a lesser degree your skill level.

[kj]

Originally posted by WCFighter
I have found that larping an opponent's sweaty arm without
the thumb can lead to a loss of grip. Wouldn't this be a good time
to use a larp with the thumb involved as opposed to not using
the thumb?

I can follow your reasoning on this, and have seen it many times. In "olden times" (lol) I used to train that way myself.

For me personally though, I wouldn't go that route. At least not intentionally. I'll offer a little background on why.

The moment I grip with the thumb, some tension necessarily results in my hand. When the hand tenses (even a teensy bit), the combined structure of muscles, tendons, bones and ligaments begins to change in the hand, through the wrist and forearm, all the way up and through the shoulder cage. Even a change in finger position can change the structural and tension dynamic all the way into the upper torso. (You can play and experiment with this for yourself.) Some folks will consider such changes to be insignificant, though in my experience, offering even a smidgen of undue tension to the wrong person can be a grave and unrecoverable mistake.

Once tensed - even momentarily - a more sensitive and skilled opponent can perceive the "lever arm" (sic) in a heartbeat, and utilize mechanical advantage and/or the conduit of my own stiffness against me, to disturb and ultimately control me. Moments expended in recovery offer expanding opportunities for an opponent to continue making things worse for me and better for him/herself.

Another aspect of this dilemma is that some opponents will have experience and wherewithal to turn their energy (forces) and positioning upon me soon as they feel me begin to commit a grip - such that if I release my grip, I'm in deep poo (e.g., opponents hands already positioned and poised for imminent attack). And if I don't let go, I'm still in deep poo (e.g., they can control or destroy my posture and structure, and then, there I go having to try to recover again, as before). So in a sense, by gripping with the hand (and thumb), I ironically risk inviting a sort of "trap" on myself. This sort of dynamic can play out whether the gripping involves both hands or just one. Naturally, for the same reasons, I consider it an opportunity when someone tries to grip me.

Still, as René and others point out, I concede that everything has advantages and disadvantages. Thus, looking at the problem from a different angle and context, your proposed solution may be adequate if one can indeed out-muscle, out-size, or out-skill today's opponent.

In my case, being of inherently weaker and smaller structure (e.g., relatively small bones, wrists, hands), I consider myself backhandedly lucky in the sense that I cannot get away with employing that kind of strength, tension or grips in these, my training days. Consequently, my immediate shortcomings "force" me to develop and rely on different kinds of skills and habits, to mitigate what others might assess as acceptable risks, and compel me to concern myself with what some may perceive as insignificant details.

Not an exhaustive explanation, but a few considerations offered for the sake of the discussion.

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

Yeah, but if they're that skilled, they usually won't have gotten even the slightest bit sweaty

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Yeah, but if they're that skilled, they usually won't have gotten even the slightest bit sweaty

Yeah, but we'll be.

Regards,
- kj

[anerlich]

All the TWC forms use the thumbless larp sao, but we practice both options.

Ive been told by experts that the grip is actually stronger in the specific direction of the grip without the thumb, but of course the thumb stops the gripped limb being slipped out of in the opposite direction.

Then again, the thumb is more easily damaged this way (thugh if the guy gets out of your thumbless grip, much more of you may get damaged).

I still think I'd want the stability of a thumbed grip (preferably two) on an arm holding a knife or baton.

[S.Teebas]

thugh if the guy gets out of your thumbless grip, much more of you may get damaged.

If we are talking about using this for latching (and if the guy pulls away from your latch) then if you have good forward intention on, the fact you are NOT using a thumb grip is a good advantage.

It's a much easier path for your hand to firm a fist and strike...as opposed to getting hooked by your thumb on the opponents arm.

I still think I'd want the stability of a thumbed grip (preferably two) on an arm holding a knife or baton.

agreed

[Gangsterfist]

What if you lop correctly and do not need a tight grip. You bend your opponets structure with yours, not with force. Then you would not need the thumb. You bend them, you don't break them.

However, I can see where control might be the first option when fighting, lets say, someone with a small bladed weapon.

[anerlich]

Teebas/Gangster,

Yeah you're right - in TWC the thumbless is espoused as it allows for rapid transition between hands, and you usually are not really seeking to hold onto the guy longer than you have to to hit him. And the larp sao can be used to control areas other than the arm, such as the neck, where the use of the thumb is impractical.

In the knife combat system (Hock Hochheim) we practise, and BJJ, strong grips which can be retained and used for control and dominance are much more important.

IMHO the Big Guy put the thumb there for purposes of dexterity, using tools and handling small objects, rather than strength.