What style of Baguazhang do you do?

[blooming lotus]

don't know if I've mentioned it before but currently chen tai ji and a little bagua zhang omei...conditioning and form

[dropway]

"drop,
As you see above I described one of the basic whole body power exercises from Gao style. Did it make sense to you?
"

ah, yes thanks buddy

[maoshan]

Peace

Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier but I didn’t have the time before, now it’s all good.

GD
I applaud your enthusiasm, we need that in the internal these days, but you need to acknowledge your seniors in terms of knowledge and experience above yours.
I’m going to give you what you asked for after I respond to certain points you’ve made.

(*the full name of the style I train in is:
Yin Style swimming body baguazhang so I'm not sure that if swimming body refers to Yin style or another style all together.)

In all my years of learning Ba-Gua (27yrs), I’ve never heard of a “Swimming Body” aspect of the Yin style. In particular, Shi Pei Qi’s method is more of a Yang (hard) approach to the style than most. Swimming pertains to a continuous flow of movements or techniques. Shi’s method is more direct. In fact most of the Yin methods are practiced this way. The most fluent Yin I’ve encountered is Lao Shi Xu Shi Xi’s method, which I believe is based on the attribute of the snake. My Brother, BlackTaoist is his US rep and he can elaborate on this a lot more than I.

(3)also if you note nowhere have I (on the first post) mentioned the 64 palm sets (nor does the # 64 ever come up)so as far as I know it's not part of the style either.)

All Styles of Ba-Gua do the Single Palm Change. It’s the hallmark of the style. Walking the circle is the most basic aspect of the training. Walking the circle is how the SPC is trained. If you don’t do this, it’s not Ba-Gua but rather a hybrid.
As for this statement above, your wrong, each animal has 64 postures, which are practiced on all three basins, which add up to 168 movements. This structure is the same as most Ba-Gua styles.
Also, your style has a 64 Qinna 2 man set

()He Jinbao told us that one day early in his training he saw some people in a park training "muddy stepping" and then he thought he would try it out.)

The equivalent to mud stepping is the Snake step, which Yin Fu taught. The Lion step is what Shi emphasizes. This step is for combat, the others, for developing moving root, which is another hallmark of Ba-Gua. If you don’t walk the circle, you cannot develop moving root. Again this is not Ba-Gua, but a hybrid and in this instance, a poor one.
Ba-Gua is known to hit with full power while in motion, if you don’t train it, how can you do it.

(If there aren't any other "lineage" holders of the Yin style how could his be changed, and from what? As He jinbao teaches Yin fu was Dong Hai-Chuan longest trained disciple, the only who learned all of the art. Including martial, medical, chi gung, and medation.)

I have an issue with this whole response but just took a piece so that you’ll know what I referring to.
To begin, you’re so far in the dark a flashlight wouldn’t help you.
As for there not being any Yin style Lineage holders in the US, again your wrong.
Chen Xiao Ping Of the Cao style in NY and Xin Yun of PA is from Ma Gui, Yin Fu’s top student.
Men Bao Zhen was the third best in Yin’s Ba-Gua. Ma Gui and Li Yong Qing didn’t learn anything other than the fighting and they were better than Men In that aspect.
What made Men the lineage holder was that he learned all the aspects of the system, which you mention in your post.
Cao Zhong Sheng was a student of both Yin Fu and Ma Gui for 10yrs. Cao’s system has no animal styles, it teaches the single palm change and the stress is on walking not holding postures.

(He is the named lineage holder. If this is true (as I presume) than the other Yin styles are infact the ones that come from students that didn't learn the entire system of bagua, and so they should be the ones to go by their teachers names insted of the title bagua. Being that theirs is not in the lineage line. An example would be that you never heard of any other style of bagua accupunture have you?)

Your original post stated that you wanted to know the training methods of other styles of Ba-Gua, not the meditational, medical, etc…
This lead to the discussion of the methods in particular and who is teaching them and whose method is more authentic. As I said earlier, Ma Gui was more knowledgeable then Men Bao Zhen in the Combat aspects, which makes sense being that he, learned from Yin and Dong Hai Chuan. You said that you’ve read 5 books on the topic. Just what are you focusing on in your reading? You need to do a lot more research.
Look, I learned from both Shi Pei Qi and He Jin Bao and I’ve got mad respect for them.
He Jin Bao is a monster; I was part of the group that hosted them in PA in 1997, but their skills has nothing to do with the truth. Kung Fu is great business for China when it comes to westerners. All they have to do is be Chinese and mention lineage and another sucker bits the dust. It’s a money scam. Through Andrew Shi established himself in America. It really wasn’t necessary given their skill, but in China, the land of Kung Fu, if you don’t know any better, a WuShu king can make you think they are the ends all be all. So you have to come up with a gimmick. The lineage (which is common) and the Animals (which was unique) was Shi’s. But the lie has to be maintained now in order to not lose credibility and Face. Yin and Men’s family disavow Shi. Do you understand Chinese culture? This means a lot. Now if you want to believe what you’ve been taught, that’s on you, but don’t think that you can come on this board with guys that have a hell of a lot more time in this and expect them to just go alone with it. A lot of us at times disagree and practically wage minor wars up here, but it’s based on common knowledge to some degree, but you know little to nothing even about your own style, but I’m going to finish hitting you on your points.

to be continued

[maoshan]

Part II

(I don't know of any other lineage holders but then I also don't know of any other Yin styles lines either, but I live in the US so I imagine that they are in China and have yet to come to the west to teach. Unless you can say where you read or heard this I don't feel it has any validity.)

LOL, I answered this above.

(Why would you say that "There is a great deal of speculation in Beijing as to whether Mr. Xie studied very expensively with Men Baojen or not." Does someone else clame to be the lineage holder? Dr. Xie didn't train with Yin Fu because he was dead by then. If the Dr. didn't learn from Men than where did he get this knolage? He noted only Men as his teacher)

Where did he get his knowledge?
What do you know about it? You was told this, where is your proof of truth?
It’s not to say that what Shi and He are teaching is fake but rather is what they are teaching in fact the end all be all of it. Just because no one claimed it doesn’t mean that it’s not known or what Shi now calls it is not known by another name.
Many top masters don’t even teach. Some lived and died and never had a student. Most of the greatest masters are totally unknown. There is a very high master of the Gong Bao Tian lineage living in NY’s Chinatown who teaches no one except My brother BT, and that’s only because of his dedication to training and keeping the art real and not some dancing philosopher. Chen Xiao Ping Only started teaching because he saw how hard me and BT trained and even then was vary cautious with what he taught until he was very comfortable in knowing that it wouldn’t be a waste of his time.

(Omarthe fish--as I understand it there are indoor disciples and there are lineage holders both are not the same. A lineage holder did learn the hold system and the indoor disciple is just an openly trainind person who is going to be trained without the teacher holding back info. I'm not saying that I'm right or your wrong this is just as I understand it pertaining to my training.)

There have been many instances where the indoor student was more knowledgeable than the lineage holder. I gave you one with the Yin Fu Lineage, another is the Yang family Tai Chi. Yang Cheng Fu didn’t begin to train until after his father died and that only happened because the senior student’s being loyal to the master locked Yang Cheng Fu up and made him train. Because of this, even though he eventually earned the name “invincible Cheng”, he never reached his full potential because his heart wasn’t in it in the beginning and the amount of wasted time before it set in. Again, you know nothing.

(I have read alot of the songs and most of them concure with what He Jinbao has tought me.)

Really? A lot of what your saying doesn’t concur with the song’s at all. Earlier I pointed them out and will continue to do so.

(After training for 5 years I'd say I'm no longer a newbie your an ass to think so.)

Again, wrong. Being a westerner, Kung Fu is not part of your life, nor is it part of your culture. At best you’ve just entered the intermediate stage and your just starting to see through the fog that clouds your vision, and this statement applies to most.
I learned that in order for anyone to be good in the Martial Arts 3 things are needed
1) A good teacher, 2) A good method (as far as how it taught to the individual), and 3) innate talent. Any thing less, the results will be just that. Your standard will not be that high.

(also I went to this place called school and they made you learn by reading so I'd have to say you must have missed out on that if you think reading doesn't help you understand things.)

You don’t learn the Martial Arts by reading. You learn by doing. Reading gives you an idea, but after doing hands on for a while, you’ll throw the books away. They may point in the direction but are hardly the destination.

In the end, there is much I didn’t say to a lot of what you’ve written but you need to do a lot of research if really learning is your true goal.

After reading what you’ve written I originally intended to tell you all the forms of your style, but I’ve changed my mind because you need to search on your own. Many have tried to talk to you and your adamant with your stand and such bull headedness offends me. But I will give you a little of what you asked for:

(-In your style do you train:
1)standing postures?
2)singular strikes?
3)changes if so what are names?)

Standing Postures:
San Choy (San Ti)
Embrace
Hawk
Hanging Leg
T-stance
Ma Bu
Classic Guard Stance

Moving Postures: (Changes)
Single and Double palm
8 Mother Palms and the changes according to the 3 Basin they are practiced in.

Singular Strikes:
Various Palms such as the Pounding palm, Sweeping palm, Tornado palm, Reverse palm, etc… and these are combined a various points depending on goal.
The same holds for the kicks.

By the way:
(THE ENTIRE STYLE OF YBS HAS:
-72 postures(8 are circle turning postures)
-96+ strikes
-448 changes
-72 leg tech.s(monkey contains most the leg strikes)

What happened to the:

168 Stabbing Palms
504 free hand exercises
72 straight-line fighting sets
72 counter Qinna exercises and the
72 striking points?

You said that what you wrote was the entire system and I still left some out. Come on man.

Anyway back to me.

64 palms
64 palms two man set
72 Kicks
Anti Qinna methods
Rou Shou
Push hands
Free sparring

Two man conditioning methods
Apparatus conditioning methods

Weapons:
Staff
Spear
Double head Spear
Big Dao
Straight sword
Fan
Deerhorn Knives
Judges Pen
Chain Whip

And so that you understand, I’ve trained a variety of Ba-Gua styles over the years and these are all part of my practice and teaching methods.

You may feel dissed, but the way you come off, I don’t care but hopefully you may take heed to some of this.
Anyway I’m out.



Practice doesn’t make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect.

[BAI HE]

Great stuff Maoshan, great stuff.

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you Moashan.

Its nice to have the truly knowledgeable back posting things of substance.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

Maoshan, thanks for the great information! I wanted to ask about Xin Yun of Pa; do you know where in Pa he is? Anywhere close to Philly that you know of? Thanks for your time,
Regards,
Josh

[Buddy]

That, I would say, is what we call a schooling.
Buddy

[blacktaoist]

**** Maoshan that was truly one hell schooling you put on money. Any way the Yin teacher name is Zhang Yun not Xin Yun...Hahah **** everyone makes mistakes...Hahaha

Yo Josh for information on Zhang Yun go to this link :


http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/shifu_zy.htm

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

Blacktaoist, thanks for the link and your time.
Josh