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Thread: Mishou 90 hands

  1. #1
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    Smile Mishou 90 hands

    Here's some info on the Mishou (secret hands) for Yu Shan and those who might be interested.

    In one of the Liang Xuexiang Quanpu, dated 1852 CE, titled "Keshi Youyong" which Ilya Profatilov translated as "On Making It Possible to have Combat Courage", there is a introduction translated also by Shifu Profatilov as follow:

    In the pass Master Wang Lang created such forms as " Eight Elbows" (Fenshen Bazhou), "Chaotically Connected" (Luanjie), and "Secret Hands" (Mishou). Futhermore, he discoursed on the theories of emptiness and fullness (Kung Shi) and softness and hardness (Gang Rou). His perfefection was without bound.

    In the following chapters, there is a list called San Tang Chui Jiu Shi Jiao (Three Halls Fists 90 Moves) otherwise known as Mishou 90 hands. There was no mentioning of Zhaiyao but it is believe that these 90 hands are the elements that made up the current Zhaiyao 1-6 sections. The 7th section is believed to be Liang Xuexiang and/or Jiang Hualong's Digongquan (ground fighting) material.

    Recently, Su Yuchang released a list of Mishou which is a bit of a controversey. Also Sun De (Cui Shoushan's lineage) released a form which he labeled as Mishou on VCD. Both material are still under research.

    This goes to show that different methodologies are at work here. One being that Mishou is a collection of short strikes and they are not linked as forms. There is also a believe that Mishou is in fact a forms such as longfist.

    There is however an explanation between the 90 hands and the Zhaiyao 1-6. It is a rather long explanation so I won't do it right now unless there is an interest.

    I provide a few translations on Su Yuchang's list:

    1) Hidng the Flower, Lt and Rt Hidding the Flower under the foliage.

    2) Cuochui, Lt and Rt double Unmatched punch

    3)Shangxiaquan, Lt and Rt high low roundhouse punch.

    4)Butiao, Lt and Rt filling and raising punch

    5) Shangquan, Lt and Rt high roundhouse

    I believe you can see that this isn't that much of a "secret". That's where the controversey begins. Personally, I think there is an unclear understanding among the mantis community of Liang Xuexiang's original teaching. His methodology in the hands of many accomplished MAists, who sought after his Tanglang, became all different. This is one of the reason why we need to seriously look at the relationship between these key materials in the Quan and the latter materials that are in other's Quanpu or the copies (hand copies) of them. Of course this can not be verified thoroughly unless someone, who knows what exactly are the 90 hands listed in Liang Xuexiang's Quanpu, is going to share that knowledge and insights.

    Mantis108
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    對敵交手歌訣

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    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

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  2. #2
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    It is a rather long explanation so I won't do it right now unless there is an interest.
    preach on Brother Bob....


    {I have just returned from Office Depot where I purchased new journals and a big loose leaf binder and a 3 hole punch for which to print and collect these types of posts }
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  3. #3
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    Let's Do It

    Mantis 108,

    I would be especially interested, if you have the time, to go into discussion of such things...

    However, I also think that this would be a GREAT topic for the Mantis Quarterly too!

    So, in the words of Ross Perot, "I'm all ears!"

    Steve Cottrell
    www.mantisquarterly.com
    www.authentickungfu.com

  4. #4
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    Smile Hi Oso and Sifu Cottrell,

    Thanks for the interest in the topic. I have thought about writting an article of it since this topic is rarely discussed yet it is essential to understand classical Tanglang which to me as a TJPMer is the period from Li Bingxiao (mid 1700s) to Liang Xuexiang (mid 1800s). Tanglang before that time would be IMHO ancient Tanglang of Wang Lang who might be a mythical progenerator similar to Zhang Sanfeng created Taijiquan. Since Jiang Hualong's time (late 1800s), we have stylistic Tanglang period. Around 1990s, we have a kind of a chaotic period where 2 different forces are at work. One points towards further stylizing and modernizing TLQ, while the other attempts to trace back and harmonizing the styles to the classical and even ancient TLQ.

    This has to be clear because much of the Tanglang Quanpu available today derived from both ancient TLQ encapsulated in the Shaolin Authentics and Classical TLQ documented in Liang Xuexiang's Quanpu(s). It would seem that Liang Xuexiang acknowledge Wang Lang as the progenerator of TLQ. This doesn't go to said that Liang Xuexiang's TLQ is a reflection nor influence of ancient TLQ. I would very much like to stress the point that they would be totally separate entities.

    This is crucial because the theorectical underpinning of ancient and classical TLQ are remarkably similar. They both apply ideas from the I Ching which is also central to the so-called internal arts. Both ATLQ and CTLQ used I Ching numerology to a large extend. However, the CTLQ seems to be able to link I Ching symbolism with the forms really well (ie Yinyang, Gangrou, Huishi). It is important to recognize that Yinyang, Gangrou, and Huishi are 6 fundamental attributes of CTLQ. This is expressed with the first sequence of Luanjie (Yiqi Taiji, Wuda Lianhuan Pi). Incidently, there is no advance retreat in the formulation of Luanjie but these 2 attributes are found in Bazhou's formula.

    More to come later...

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

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  5. #5
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    Facinating!

    Mantis108,

    Thank you for the informative foundational material! You have set the stage well.

    I went through a study of the I Ching long ago and have begun a second review of it. It was a fruitful time when I did it many years ago for personal reasons. To address it in terms of Tanglang will be a great time.

    Pardon me if I ask many rudimental questions as we go but if you point me in the right direction I am capable of being a quick study.

    I always appreciate your willingness to share with the worldwide Tanglang community.
    Sincerely,
    Steve Cottrell
    www.mantisquarterly.com
    www.authentickungfu.com

  6. #6
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    Smile Hi Sifu Cottrell,

    Thank you. Glad you enjoy the post. It is great that you have workable knowledge of the I Ching already. Because of its holistic and organic nature, the I Ching often serves as the constitution of TCMA systems. This is not surprising when we found the relationship between I Ching and CTLQ. What is intriguing is that the CTLQ is like a elaborate physical manifestation of the book. Besides the internal arts, few systems manage to have a theorectical core as well as a physical practice that are so close to Chinese worldview.

    Anatomically speaking, Yinyang are the hooks (the hands), Gang (hard) is extremity such as the fingers, rou (flexible) is the limbs, and Huishi are the steps. BTW, the hooks are also known as 2 wings. Take Wuchui or five punches for example, the Ti bu (raising step) is Hui (empty) for avoiding hard contact and the Xiao Shi (minor stance) is Shi (full) to commit a punch as a counter. But within each of these stances there is HuiShi as well. Ti Bu is Hui with the lead leg and Shi with the rear leg while Xiao Shi is the opposite. In this way, the actions in TLQ expressed the concept of imperminence (changes) in I Ching symbolism.

    Yinyang, Gangrou, and HuiShi found in the CTLQ are the representation of the 6 lines or Liu Yao in the hexagram. These 6 attributes in turn formed the basis of CTLQ. Luanjie is formulated with these Liu Yao. It is no wonder that Luanjie's alias is "hooks" (expression of the interplay between Yinyang). Bazhou and Mishou also follow similar formulation. This expended the pugilistic knowledge into a full system.

    Just some more thoughts to share for now.

    Warm regards

    Robert (Mantis108)
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  7. #7
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    Wings

    Mantis 108,

    I appreciate your willingness to share information with the rest of us.

    As a passing thought I recently got a book from the mainland on a hybrid mantis style called "Spreading Wings Tanglang". It is a mixture of Baqua Zhang and Tanglang. I have yet to get into it deeply but it comes from Shangdong province. Your illustration gives greater information on how it could have gotten the name "Spreading Wings".

    thanks again,

    Steve Cottrell
    www.mantisquarterly.com
    www.authentickungfu.com

  8. #8
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    Smile Hi Sifu Cottrell,

    You are most welcome, my friend.

    I have to caution though the text that I got from is a recent article that seems to be from TJPM's Wang Yuanliang (brother of Wang Yuanqian) lineage and is available on the internet. There are certain minor area that seem to be not quite consistant with the I Ching in the classical sense. There are borrowing of Taoist ideas such as three treasure in the explanation as well. So I would caution until we can verify the whole text whether it truely reflects what's in Liang Xuexiang's Quanpu. Having said that the theorectical and philosophical aspect seems largely in order. It does render a deeper understanding of the forumlation of the Classical Tanglang system and forms.

    About hybrid Tanglang style, this one is new to me. But I am not surprised because there are many that claim to be Tanglang. I have even seen a book of a so-called Taiji Tanglang from mainland China that just take southern mantis' history combined it with some san da, katana, knife, and a exotic weapon and called it a secret lineage. The sickest thing though is that they borrowed the some of the legitimate moves such Pa Shan Shou (hill climbing hands) from the real TJPM (northern) while stated in the book cover that the style is from Southern Fujian Shaolin temple. That's quite a farce. The money grabbing thing in mainland publishing is just disgusting.

    Having said that, there are IMHO some legitimate hybrid Tanglang styles beside the big four (Taiji, Meihwa, Qixing, and Liuhe). BTW, Taiji Meihwa would be consider within the greater Meihua community. Most of these can be traced back to or affiliated with Classical Tanglang of Liang Xuexiang. I will list some that I know of:

    Babu Tanglang,
    CCK TCPM
    Guangbian Tanglang,
    Hao family TJMHPM
    JingShou Tanglang,
    Meihwa Shuaishou or Shuaishou,
    Tongbi Tanglang,
    Wahlum Tan Tui Tanglang,
    Yingyang Tanglang,

    Most of these can be found on the Mantis Cave. There are some that I can't find any info. For example, Yuhuan Tanglang is one that I have not been able to find any info at all.

    Actually, I forgot about 2 more recent development

    Baji Tanglang (Su Yuchang)
    Ponglai Wuji Tanglang (Shr Zhengzhong)

    Although Shrfu Shr ZhengZhong might not consider his teaching as a style of its own, I don't see any reason that it wouldn't be. I would very much think that he has the knowledge, experience, and right (learning from a lot of the high calibre masters) to form his own style if he so choose.

    Warm regards

    Robert (Mantis108)
    Last edited by mantis108; 06-30-2004 at 01:02 PM.
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

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  9. #9
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    Robert,
    Can you post a link to Wang Yuanliang's article?
    Or maybe set it up here as a file?

  10. #10
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    Re: Mishou 90 hands

    Originally posted by mantis108

    Recently, Su Yuchang released a list of Mishou which is a bit of a controversey.
    Mantis108,
    Could you direct us to where this list was released and in what context? I'm also a bit curious as to the controversey but right now I wanted to get the text for my Sifu.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  11. #11
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    Smile Hi Count,

    Here's the link to the article

    http://netcity3.web.hinet.net/userdata/ccchi/hope14.htm

    It is in one of the link there. Last time I checked the site, it seemed to be not working. But may be it's just a temporary thing.

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  12. #12
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    Re: Hi Count,

    Originally posted by mantis108
    Here's the link to the article

    http://netcity3.web.hinet.net/userdata/ccchi/hope14.htm

    It is in one of the link there. Last time I checked the site, it seemed to be not working. But may be it's just a temporary thing.

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
    Mantis 108,

    His site moved. The new url is :
    http://pachitanglang.myweb.hinet.net/hope14.htm

    wm
    dazed and confused

  13. #13
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    WonderingMonk,
    I can't read Chinese. I would like to print out the correct article to show my Sifu since we were discussing this in class just the other day. Is this the correct text?
    http://pachitanglang.myweb.hinet.net/hope14.htm
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  14. #14
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    non secret

    Ohhh! You mean this manuscript.

    The manuscript perplexed me as it says it is something secret and yet it is nothing but names.
    So there are several reasons why I think this is not mi shou.
    Nor do I think it is anything secret or valuable.

    1. In the old PM manuscripts all the names of moves have detailed explanations sometimes going so far as to add poetry and philosophy.
    This is just simple names, many of these can be found in zhai yao.

    2. Wang Yifu (1934)has detailed explanations of essential PM moves such as 7 long 8 short 7 manuevers etc. Here it is not only simple names, but they are not the well known PM names we would expect to see in an old text.
    By old technique names I mean like;
    7 long
    8 short
    7 manuevers
    18 families
    fanche lulu

    3. Cui Shoushan(Kung fu brother/cousin of Li Kunshan), like Wang Yifu, has detailed descriptions(unpublished).
    The number of techniques described go far beyong 90. Some of the name match as what is written here but without the "left right(prevalant here)" and instead with detailed descriptions.

    4. The old PM manuscripts don't describe every technique with "left and right"
    Maybe there are 20 out of hundreds in Cui Shoushan, yet here just about every technique is described "left and right"

    5. This manuscript claims to be from Li Kunshan and Zhang Dekuei if I am reading it correctly.
    A brief glimpse of Li Kunshan's 2 surviving manuscripts makes that seem unlikely.
    His method of writing is not like this.
    On careful reading of his manuscripts this suppoesed mi shou is not anywhere to be found.
    Though he does have other, as yet umnetioned, fighting theories spelled out in greater detail than is shown here.

    6. I showed this to my shrfu, I found that other students had also shown it to him before me.
    He has a very large collection of manuscripts to look through and he said this is not a part of Li Kunshan's material(in case I had missed something).
    His opinion is that this is not old or secret or from Li or Zhang.
    Though he also pointed out that some of the names, in part, are found in Li Kunshan's manuscripts for forms like 8 elbows and zhai yao.

    7. He studied with Zhang Dekuei and says that Zhang had no manuscripts.
    Last edited by Tainan Mantis; 07-12-2004 at 07:08 AM.

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by count
    WonderingMonk,
    I can't read Chinese. I would like to print out the correct article to show my Sifu since we were discussing this in class just the other day. Is this the correct text?
    http://pachitanglang.myweb.hinet.net/hope14.htm
    Count,

    If you are referring to the "secret hand 90 techniques", then I believe this is the one.

    wm
    dazed and confused

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