Earth Dragon, Chinese Teachers and Sifu

[Ray Pina]

I was away the past few days and only read a few pages of the Chinese teachers thread but noticed you asked why you call your teacher "sifu."

Funny thing is, all my American teachers requested to be called this and after about a week my present teacher (born, raised and trained in China -- though his good stuff was imported from China, having paid for the teachers to come over and host them) kindly asked me to stop calling him sifu -- it made him uncomfortable.

He said sifu is like a father tittle and should only be used if you are living with the teacher and the teacher kind of takes care of you while you train.

He prefers to be called Mr. Chan. I call him my master though, because he is the first person that I have met that the title truly fits. His skill is such that to me, anything less would be an insult .... but it's funny how he doesn't care either way.

Anyway, when someone's attacking you and their fist is coming in it goes beyond American, Chinese, ect., it goes down to the HUMANITY .... what works?

My master has now developed his own system, E-Chuan. It has a lot of Ba Gua and HSing-I in their but also Grandmaster Lui's pole footwork and his own ground fighter. I've never thought of it like this before but it is a true AMERICAN art developed by a Chinese man. It takes in everything good and dispells everything that is worthless. It is open to change, welcomes it and actually constantly searches to find its own weaknesses and beat them instead of hiding them under the blanket.

All that matters: Can you kick a$$?

With Barnes and Nobles, and the Internet book sellers, there's more than enough history to be obtained. I don't go all the way into Chinatown to study Lau Tzu, I go to learn how to beat good fighters..... though I do get history sometimes as a way of explianing something here and there and apreciate it .... it's just icing on the cake and some down time to rest between drills.

[intimidation]

Interesting insights. Some things are definatley just universal, like a punch to the head. You don't talk to your opponent while fighting

[shaolinboxer]

If it is true that great internal martial arts come down to whether or not you can kick a$$, then it is a shame that they are being perpetuated. There is level of performance much higher than that. Why be so limited?

It is interesting that you should mention humanity...what is humanity? How do we define our own humanity? Is it through competitive success? Through domination?

If when faced with a punch to the face the best we can do is hit back, what then? Why even bother to practice? It makes the whole mess of martial arts into something totally boring, archaic, and practically useless.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
If it is true that great internal martial arts come down to whether or not you can kick a$$, then it is a shame that they are being perpetuated. There is level of performance much higher than that. Why be so limited?

It is interesting that you should mention humanity...what is humanity? How do we define our own humanity? Is it through competitive success? Through domination?

If when faced with a punch to the face the best we can do is hit back, what then? Why even bother to practice? It makes the whole mess of martial arts into something totally boring, archaic, and practically useless.

Nicely put. I have nothing to add.

[Ray Pina]

I understand exactly what you are getting at.

Know this, my introduction to martial arts was at the age of four and the first thing my sensei did was teach me how to sit quietly -- actually kneel -- fold my hands in my lap and just chill out. I did that for a while before he showed me my first kata, ect. Maybe I'll scan some photos one day.

That school was very focused on discipline, I even had to show my sensei my report cards which were never too good and had "growing in self discpline" marked with a U(nsatisfactory) which no ine oculd understand since I was so disciplined about martial arts.

On top of that my mom dragged me to church every sunday until she died when I was 18. That brought a lot of questions I sought answers to and studied budhism and Toaism because they always interested me anyway; did the LSD thing in college, followed the dead, camped out with the Rainbow coalition, the full-on hippie scene and learned a lot. Basically learned that God is internalized and my mind/viewpoint/intention creates my life, ect.

On the otherside, can't think of a single street fight I lost as a kid (except one when I was 8 or 9 and thr kid 11 or 12) but somehow thought my training was lacking something.

Bounced around with Wing CHun and Hung Gar until I met my S Mantis teacher and fought about 3 times a week. I learned that the aproach I took before was full of $hit .... good, great for discipline and building a foundation, but leaving me over convident to face a real violent situation.

Complete with who I am -- or at least happy with where I am now but wise enough to know I'm still growing/learning/experiencing, ect -- I know want reality in my training.

My master stresses health and training smarter, but a MARTIAL artist has to be able to fight. My ears always go up when I hear too much focus on chilling out and alinging the planets, ect. I don't need martial arts for that. I can study yoga, go to church, ect.

I am confident to say, I am one of the easiest going, layed back person you'll ever meet -- curtious to a fault. But what do you suggest I do if I'm down town with my girl and some guy bumps into her, calls her a dirty ho, and when I ask him to apologize he shoves me and BEGINS to make an offense motion?

Something like this hasn't happened in a long time. About two weeks ago some wise ass called me out of the McDOnald's bathroom insisting he was first after I got the key from the manager and when I asked him to repeat what he wanted because I couldn't believe it, he said something punk-a$$ish and actually put his hands on me.

I gave him a "you're fu(king rediculous" smile and said, go ahead and use it, just don't touch me.

I wanted to not cause a scene, but at the same time show him I won;t take his **** and maybe bait him a little bit, because I'm not beyond beating a wise a$$ a little bit.

I could have easily cross his arms up, decked him in the face, kicked his legs out and either slammed his head into the sink or kick him while he was down a few times depending on how he landed. But that's childish and can lead to a gun or knife (which I had) being pulled.

So, to me, MARTIAL arts is empowering one to trully be themselves what that may be. Confident to do and say what they want. When I see someone being a ******wood and I'm in the mood, I'll say it. When I saw teenagers throwing **** as a fenced in dog I gave them a piece of my mind, ect.

I see too many martial artists -- at the two TKD schools in my neighborhood -- who simply can't defend themselves. I can see it in their eye and the way they carry themselves. That is fine. Just not the road I am taking and so I found a place where I can train to meet my needs.

You can train at the same place and not feel that way. Because you get out what you put in and what you want. Some students are great fencers, all are strong.

But none of us do forms, none of us where sashes or swing fake weapons. We train with 10 or 12 oz gloves, full gear and try to keep it as real as possible without really hurting someone. This to me is martial arts .... it just happens to be internal.

On the other hand, there is a park around the corner from my master school where people are doing Taiji ... God, not only can't they fight, but they break tons of principles as far as pushing angles, knees waaaaaaay over there front toes, ect. They are dancers not martial artist.

It's too easy to say "we are too dangerous", or "we are too high level to play with you" or "this fighting style is about not fighting."

Don't worry if you're too dangerous -- I'll still try.

Forgive my low level, I'd still like to try. And if you are a very high ranking master, please, ley me give you $50 for the 5 minute pushhands lesson. If you beat me good it will be worth it.

If your style is "not about fighting" or better yet "beating (beacuse this is what I want" .... then just get the hell out of here -- you may have bought into, but I'm embarrassed for you. You can't get to that high level without fighting. How do you know what works, what doesn't work?

I am, and probbaly always will be, looking for a better way, testing a better way. To do that, you have to get dirty sometimes ... you even have to lose a few confrontations here and there and take your lumps. It's not for everybody. But don't confuse being scared or unwilling to do it with a "higher than though" martial art attitude.

If you are already there, please excuse my rudeness. You are better than me and I mean no offense. I'm just trying to get there the only way I know how.

[Starchaser107]

that was a cool read.

[Vash]

Well, being Christian, I'd say doing things wihch make the Big G look good. As a man, I'd say "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

I do martial arts because I need to be able to whoop someone's ass before they stomp a mudhole in mine. Is this wrong? Can't say I'd care too much about that when I'm on my way to the hospital.

What is anything about? Ask Conan.

[EarthDragon]

Evolution fist,
I will answer your question simply............... I call him sifu out of protocol and respect. I did live with my sifu, at his school and he is chinese so the "father" relationship was there to boot.

[WanderingMonk]

technically, there's two terms for "sifu" in chinese. One is Si (teach) fu (father). The other si (teach) fu (homonynm to father but not the father character). The second just designate an instructor.

It is customary to refer someone you hold in esteem or someone who is a professional as the second type of sifu. In movie on Wong Fei Hong, wong fei hong is often referred to as Wong sifu by other people out of respect. but if you read the chinese subtitle, the "sifu" used is the 2nd type of "sifu".

I attached a pic of the two chinese version of "si fu" for your information.

Also, in the chinese resturant business, the seniro chief is alway refer to as "da si fu", the senior "instructor" (which in this case substitute for the usage of word, chief). it is only used out of respect and no one is really calling him, teacher/father. I am sure an average American instructor who is opening a kungfu/karate school wouldn't know any difference, so when they demand you to call him "sifu" that means "teacher/father". but, that is not how it is always used in chinese.

[EarthDragon]

Wandering monk,
Intersting post. I do have a comment to you.......as far as my qigong teacher says, "sifu" pronunced (see foo) means spouse in mandarin, and that the correct pronunciation for teacher/ father is actually "shrfu" pronunced (sure foo) However the lazy american way we say sifu, like kung fu instead of gongfu, karate instead of kara te

[joedoe]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Wandering monk,
Intersting post. I do have a comment to you.......as far as my qigong teacher says, "sifu" pronunced (see foo) means spouse in mandarin, and that the correct pronunciation for teacher/ father is actually "shrfu" pronunced (sure foo) However the lazy american way we say sifu, like kung fu instead of gongfu, karate instead of kara te

sifu = Cantonese pronounciation
shrfu = Mandarin pronounciation

[Yum Cha]

We use the term Sifu liberally. All the Chinese use the term as we westerners would use the term Coach or Teacher. No elevated honour, no mysticism. Granted, we model our school on the family, with Sifu, the older brothers/sisters, younger brothers/sisters and "children" being the raw novices, first yearlings. Being that we are a primarially Chinese school, as a westerner, you just go with the flow.

Also, I've heard a good Chef in a restaurant called Sifu when he comes to say hello to our table. I've heard the repairman at the temple called Sifu in respect of his trades ability.

So, seems like theres lots of room for interpretation..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I like the term LaoShi, "old teacher".. it is the formal term for teacher in China.. but, more adequately describes me, an "old" teacher.. no mysticism, no heirarchy.. just me sharing the experiences with those that find some value in them.. and, considering all the things i have been called, Bob works best for me..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Most of my master's disciples (all Chinese) refer to him as LaoShi (in my mind it almost sounds lile lousy which I find funny because he's far from).

The newer non-Chinese students simply call him Mr. Chan.

Earth Dragon, my main point with you is not over what you call your teacher -- a rose by any other name, blah, blah, blah -- but the undertones that you have to be Chinese or completely embrace their culture to obtain skill.

Now, I just happen to love all things Asian. The delivery guy for the Chinese food and sushi must trip out when they come over. The front door opens up into a nice sized training hall, about a bedroom and a half. My trophies are on a shelf, boxing gloves hanging on the wall, a painting I painted of a bonzai, some calligraphy, a few pictures of me as a kid in gi, my new gi, my old black belt and white belt on the wall, ect. I read the Tao Te Ching regulalrly, as of Sun Tzu and Chueng Tzu.

But I also know a lot of people out here on Long Island who really want to be monks, watch Kung Fu movies constantly, take their weapons to the park and make spectacles of themselves, are GREAT liondancers and perform out --- even for the Dali Lama a few years ago. I can say with complete confidence: not a fighter a mong them .... and they are proud of the 2 or 3 Chinese kids they have recruited into the group for legitamacy.

Of course, the best martial artist I have ever met is Chinese. I'm sure he couldn't have learned under his top teachers if he wasn't Chinese. I'm glad he's so open with me.

That's prety much it.

It doesn't matter or affect me if you think the way you do more. I think the idea that martial artist should chant as someone strikes out at them, or even more so, NOT TEST THEIR SKILLS, is poison.

Soldiers must shoot their guns and get familiar with their weapons. Pilots must fly their planes and test their bombing. But martial artists -- who are supposed to be deadly with their hands, feet and small hidden bladed/blunt force weapons -- are supposed to do forms and chant

[EarthDragon]

Evolutionfist, allow me to eleborate
I think perhaps as I had said in response to that post is that what I said was blown way out of porportion. I am a tradtionalist whole heartedly and I have many years in the matial arts and FOR ME I have always seeked to find the source, in kung fu that happens to be chinese.
I have spent the last 14 years translating my system from its chinese characters to english. I feel it neccesary to learn the language in order to have a firm grasp on the art as a whole.

I was critisized, called names and chastized because these are my beliefs, and again TO ME to really know and understand the art in which you are spending your life learning you must learn the culture behind it. I have never met a serious sifu that did not know the names of his techniques in chinese. However I was attacked by a few of the americanized schools and thier students. They argue that you dont have to be chinese to fight or be good in kung fu. I agree however, I find that to be really good you must understand much more than fighting.
This is just a basic elementary part of kung fu and not many people have taken the time to learn all there is to know, heck some people still think Tai Chi is for old people. They fail to set goals to surpass, they simply think of the yang and not the yin.
I am older now and probably wont ever have to fight again, so my focus has shifted to qigong and medicine. I seriously doubt that any american could teach me the high level that I am seeking.
It's becuase we as americans want things fast! Only a small handful of us have taken the time to learn the art as a whole, its our culture and our laziness not our fault.
My sifu said that in china many masters would become OMD's doctors before fighters. Fighting was secondary. However we as americans want the fighting only and are satisfied.

I am not! I have chosen to venture more deeply into my art and to do that It is almost a must to learn the culture, including the language.
"I have joint locks that dont translate well into english, so instead of trying to change the original meaning to better suit me I chose to learn it in it's tongue to better suit the art".

So if some jokers out here that limit themselves to (kicking a$$ man) only then they dont need to learn it in any language, just do it. red5angel is a joke and basically from reading his posts he doesnt know his art from his own a$$. These are the elementary practioners I speak of............