Being a Wing Chun Sifu Sucks!!!!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Been teaching for 21 years...and there are about 10 people who have trained with me from between 7-16 years (and about 6 of these people still attend some classes whenever they can; and since people's lives change - some get married and have children, some move away, some go forward in their time consuming careers which prevents their attendance on a regular basis anymore)...

But I value these folks very highly, and for a number of reasons.

They are like my children, (I have none of my own other than my step son - and I am about to turn 55 years old), - my brothers and sisters, my students, and my friends...all wrapped up into one person.

That...along with the immeasurable value they have given as training/sparring partners - and along with the immense pleasure I have experienced in watching through the years how each one of them has grown and developed in their fighting skill and knowledge...

has been worth all the frustration connected with the literally hundreds of people who have passed through my doors through the years but didn't stay long enough, for one reason or another, to become an excellent student or a friend.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Been teaching for 21 years...and there are about 10 people who have trained with me from between 7-16 years (and about 6 of these people still attend some classes whenever they can; and since people's lives change - some get married and have children, some move away, some go forward in their time consuming careers which prevents their attendance on a regular basis anymore)...

But I value these folks very highly, and for a number of reasons.

They are like my children (I have none of my own other than my step son - and I am about to turn 55 years old)...my brothers and sisters, my students, and my friends...all wrapped up into one person.

That...along with the immeasurable value they have served as training/sparring partners - and along with the immense pleasure I have experienced in watching through the years how each one of them has grown and developed in their fighting skill and knowledge...

has been worth all the frustration connected with the literally hundreds of people who have passed through my doors through the years but didn't stay long enough, for one reason or another, to become an excellent student or a friend.

Beautiful post Vic.......

I'm not a sifu, but have taught wing chun & escrima for over a decade, and the coolest thing about it has been seeing people (whether they trained with me for 6 months, or over 6 years); come out of their shells, face their fears & insecurities, gain confidence, and deal with their egos (learning true humility). -All the rest of the headaches and bullsh1t is water under the bridge, but those are the things that have stayed with me.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

The best instructors I've had keep a certain emotional distance between themselves and the student, and generally keep a certain part of their private lives hidden from even the closest students. "Be friendly but aloof" is what one mentor told me about interaction with students.

Andrew,

[My primary teacher of many years] also told me this, but I shrugged it off as being something that a full-time pro instructor needs to do to keep from being taken advantage of, or taken for granted when he relies on the students for his income. -Aside from financial considerations, what valid reasons could there be for doing this?

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thanks, Lawrence...and this was SO WELL PUT:

"and the coolest thing about it has been seeing people...come out of their shells, face their fears & insecurities, gain confidence, and deal with their egos (learning true humility)."

[quiet man]

But what about leaving something behind? What about making sure your ving tsun will outlive you? My sifu's been teaching for about 20 years now. Few years ago, 4 of his senior students, already instructors in their own clubs, left him for another sifu because they thought he was holding them back (from what I hear, they aren't happy about their current teacher either, but no matter). Some more time passes, another senior student leaves ving tsun altogether because he wants to go into MMA. And finally, his at-that-time seniormost student also leaves vt - new job, wife, kids, you know how it goes. And let me tell you, this guy was good. Tall and muscular, but with an amazing position, amazing timing, amazing coordination, and so much dedication... everyone thought of him as the future sifu.

So now, after 20 years of hard work, my sifu has nothing to show for him. Who will succeed him? He shrugs it off with a smile, but I'm sure it's slowly getting to him...

[stonecrusher69]

So now, after 20 years of hard work, my sifu has nothing to show for him. Who will succeed him? He shrugs it off with a smile, but I'm sure it's slowly getting to him...
That's a tuff one to deal with..In teaching like anything else there is very little loyalty today.If someone does not like what there getting they simply move on.

[anerlich]

Aside from financial considerations, what valid reasons could there be for doing this?

The financial considerations are valid - IMO it is often, if not always, a mistake to mix money and friends, business and pleasure. Having worked for one, now ex-, friend, and seen an MA instructor I know lose two very good students because he convinced them to participate in real estate deals that went sour, in this I am a firm believer.

I think too there's the same sort of obligations that go with educational or professional relationships - teachers, doctors, etc. not having relationships with their students or patients - such relationships can be exploited by one or both parties otherwise.

It's probably harder to respect, or accept discipline from, someone you went out drinking with last night and watched spew in a gutter before you shovelled them into a taxi. Sifus are human too (as much as some might like to pretend otherwise), with human frailties and weaknesses best yielded to away from the scrutiny of students. They too like to ***** and let off steam occasionally, but there is a time and place, and in front of students probably ain't it.

And my wife would get REALLY pi$$ed off if I had students calling me incessantly to ask for personal or training advice, favours, or just to shoot the breeze.

[mufty]

Teaching the Martial Arts is poblematical.
On the one hand as teachers we want to teach our students as much as we can, as quicly as we can. And have them become very good martial artist's. We also wished that they continued training for life.

However if every student that has passed through our doors stayed there would not be a training hall large enough to cater for those exceptional training days when everybody turns up to train.

Over the many years I have been teaching I have met and made friends with so many people, some are still training others not but I still see them and we have a good chat and somtimes a drink.

Also I have taught their children, who now have youngsters of their own who they intend to bring to training.

Although I would like everybody to remain training I know that this is impractical.

But what warms my heart is that I am recognised for my efforts and dedication to the martial arts where I live, The local children call me the Karate man, and I can go out and be proud of the achivements that my students have made.

I see adults who were once children, somtimes difficult children, who have overcome theirselves and become Fathers and Mothers, holding down good jobs, owning their own homes and so on ect ect ect, ex students who take the time of day to share a joke and speak to me.

I have new students, who will eventually leave to persue their lives, and I know that their stay at our martial arts club was a positive one, and will be with them all their lives.

This is how we overcome the problem of students moving on, we must see the positive effects, like a ripple in the sea of life.

Anyway My life as an instructor dose not suck, in fact the martial arts have given me the power to be able to lead a life very diffrent and fufilling. Allowing me the freedom to live it my way.

[anerlich]

But what about leaving something behind? What about making sure your ving tsun will outlive you?

I think this is expecting a bit much. We'd all like to think we are remembered and revered after death, but for the vast majority it's not going to happen. If this is your purpose for living, you're missing out on the joys of here and now. Has your Sifu not brought some meaning and pleasure to people's lives? Is that not enough? Did his Sifu say to him, "if you don't get the one true successor, you're a loser and your life will have been a complete waste"?

Remember the Buddhist reality of impermanence. Everything and everyone leaves or dies eventually. Nothing lasts. Get used to it, because that's the way it is.

And finally, his at-that-time seniormost student also leaves vt - new job, wife, kids, you know how it goes. And let me tell you, this guy was good. Tall and muscular, but with an amazing position, amazing timing, amazing coordination, and so much dedication... everyone thought of him as the future sifu.

You have no spouse or kids, huh?

His first loyalty *should* be to his family ... his wife and kids are probably much happier he's with them, and making lots of bucks at his new job, than worrying about his Sifu's mantle being passed to him. Every moment you don't spend with your kids is one you and they will never get back. Becoming a Sifu means liittle if to get there you sacrifice family life. If a choice was ever demanded between training to become a Sifu and my wife, Sifu is coming a distant second/last.

Why does your Sifu need to choose one successor? In reality, he has many.

[quiet man]

@ anerlich:

I think you misunderstand me. Nobody resents this guy for leaving the kwoon to get married, have a new job and a family life; in fact, we couldn't be happier for him. He's a really nice guy, always with a smile on his face, always helping his younger brothers, and beating them only occasionally , so it was really nice to see good things happen to him. And I'm not saying sifu feels betrayed or something, nor does sifu disapprove of his choice. It's nothing personal.
It's just that, after my sifu, the way things are now, ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with him. So it's not really a matter of remembering one person, it's about keeping the art alive. My sifu is really good (and I'm not just saying that because he's mine). He's a direct student of the late Wong Shun Leung and has so much knowledge to share, both practical and theoretical, not to mention numerous anecdotes about Wong sigung and Hong Kong. I was fortunate enough to find such a school, but tomorrow there may be no school to find at all.
I know all things die eventually, and so will vt, but some things are more precious than others, perhaps... so what I'm saying (getting there, finally ): although many quit on him, Yip Man still has Leung Sheung, Wong Shun Leung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheung Tin, his sons and many others, and although many quit on him too, Wong Shun Leung still has Philipp Bayer, Barry Lee, Nino Bernardo, David Peterson and many others... it's possible my sifu feels he's been writing on the water.

[Lindley]

This post should be renamed more appropriately "Being (MY) Wing Chun Sifu sucks". Like most things in life, it is not wise to generalize by the limitations of our own experiences or the experiences of the few. There are aspects of being a Sifu that are intangeables. It's like saying your child costs you so much money and time and trying to compare this to them calling you "daddy" or "Mommy" and smiling up at you. I wrote a piece for our newsletter on the difference between being a Sifu and being someone who teaches students. On being a Sifu, one must recognize the level of commitment level and adjust to such. Others mistakenly think that he who teaches good kung fu or opens a school is doing it out of "passion". Passion is part of it, but don't mistake passion for stupidity.

The problem with most martial arts school owners and leaders is that they hold on to traditional methods outside the training floor. Especially in the United States where we have such diverse cultural backgrounds there exists certain things that can make people come together and reach the goal that are non-traditional. I use a lot of ideas from the Karate folks and they DO work. However, I use them in a way consistent with making sure that both sides get a fair exchange. Although, truely there is no price for one's experiences, our society uses money as a symbol. Behind that symbol is obligation.

If the approach of martial arts training is one dimensional - meaning that students are only after how much direct information they can get; the "show me this and show me that" - then these type of incidents, like students leaving for other masters, and such will happen. I tend to take an inclusive relationship with my students, meaning that they need not feel they must leave the family to learn other things. If they see something somewhere else, they can bring it back for discussion or demonstration. As the Sifu, my job is to help them reach their goals through Ving Tsun Kung Fu training and the concept of Kung Fu life. A sculptor does not teach you how to make art; you watch and learn from the master's words and actions. You are really an apprentice.

One should never feel that a Sifu wasted efforts on any student. The student put in their time and came along for the ride. Relationships are difficult in any realm of life, so why should they be any different in the kwoon? The student who leaves must do what they must. It would be inappropriate for the Sifu to stand in their way.

A true Sifu is very strong and relaxed, and knows the right things to do. From your perspective, maybe it "sucks" to do what they do. Let's see if it "sucks" when you become one.

[anerlich]

I think you misunderstand me.

So maybe you didn't explain yourself properly?

It's just that, after my sifu, the way things are now, ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with him. So it's not really a matter of remembering one person, it's about keeping the art alive. My sifu is really good (and I'm not just saying that because he's mine).

With due respect, the art looks pretty healthy around the world with or without your Sifu. You're being way too romantic and full of self pity.

If YOU'RE so concerned, what are YOU doing about it besides whingeing on an internet forum? If you're not trying to get as much info as possible out of him, make vids, write books, train harder and teach more than he did, you're part of the problem and just as bad as any of these others you talk about.

YOU solve his problem (are you sure its his and not yours?), or quit your whining. It's not up to him to make YOU feel right.

[n.mitch]

I think its is hard if your teaching wing chun (or any martial art) to make a living out of it.Easier to teach for a hobby and enjoyment ,and a little bit of extra money which these days you need just to cover your insurance.
Even thought its fustrating when students leave especially those with talent, its worth it when you are teaching the students who do stay and you can see them grow as martial artist and as human beings. nothing better than seeing them understanding a technique or form you have been teaching them that they couldnt apply or had trouble with, then all of a sudden it just clicks.
I also find that teaching helps your own understanding of wing chun and makes you a better martial artist. Its great passing on what you have learnt to others and the conntinual growth of martial arts.

[quiet man]

So maybe you didn't explain yourself properly?

And maybe you need to back off a little? Maybe read what is written before you start getting all condescending? I say "ving tsun in my country will pretty much die with (my sifu)", and you say "the art looks pretty healthy around the world with or without your Sifu. You're being way too romantic and full of self pity". What would that technique be? Non-sequitur sau?
This thread's called "Being a Wing Chun Sifu Sucks", so I offered one possible argument in favor of the thesis and used my sifu as an example. What I didn't do, however, is ask for your "advice" on how to handle my "problem", nor for your in-depth analysis of my personality and my behaviour.

And if my "whining" annoys you so much, please feel free to ignore it. I sure wouldn't want to waste any of your precious time.

[anerlich]

Touchy. The point is, why can't/don't you pick up where your Sifu leaves off? Then WC in your country doesn't have to die. Does it?