5 Ancestors / 5 Elders Question

[Ao Qin]

Could someone please help me to understand the difference between these styles (five elders / five ancestors) of kungfu? What is the difference between "Ngo Cho", "Wu Zu Quan", "Go Cho Kune", etc.? Is one from Doo Wai? Is this a seperate lineage from Chua Giok Beng?

Who are the five elders / ancestors? Ng Mui, Fung Do Duk, Pak Mei, Mew Hing, Gee Sim, Lei Ban San, Cai De Zhong, Fang Da Hong, Ma Chao Xing, Hu De Di, Li Shi Kai, etc.?

Many websites out there call the five southern families (Hung Lau Choi Lee Mok) the "five elders / ancestors" too - just to confuse the issue. Are some of these connected to the Honan Temple, and some to the Fukkien Temple? What are the timeframes?

Thanks for any help!

AQ

[joedoe]

The five ancestors of the art that is known as Ngor Chor Kun/Wu Zu Quan are not the same as the Shaolin five ancestors. The art of Ngor Chor Kun is a synthesis of the five arts (or ancestors) of monkey, white crane, lohan, Damo, and Tai Tzu.

As for the rest, I cannot really say. The Fillipino lineage of Ngor Chor Kun holds that Chua Giok Beng was the founder of Ngor Chor, however the Chee Kim Thong lineage traces Ngor Chor Kun back to around 1300AD to Bai Yuk Feng. I am not interested in getting into a lineage 'discussion'

Hope that helps to clear up part of your confusion

[mantis108]

The Five Ancestors style is pretty much what Joedoe has outlined. It is of note that Damo is essentially the Qigong or Neigong internal aspect. It is not a style per se. Taizu and monkey styles were popular during Ming dynasty. Taizu Changquan is a northern long fist style although today there are people claiming a southern lineage of it. Lohan like Taizu Changquan "could" be link to the Henan Shaolin temple. White crane in some versions is called Yongchun or Wing Chun. The founder of the style used to be a "Shaolin" boxer in late Ming and early Qing dynasty. He and his daugther (the progenerator of the white crane style) were relocated to Wing Chun county in Fujian province. The daugther married one of her students and they produced many great students in the Wing Chun area. Years later their students' students includes Ng Mui, Chee Sim, etc...

Here's where the story gets interesting, Chee Sim had a few students including Hung Hey Kwoon (went on to create Hung Gar) and Wong Kun (a Hakka person). This Wong Kun might have been the teacher of Lung Ying's Lum Yum Tong (GM LYG's father). I think Kun (earth trigram) in Hakka dialect sounds like Kiu. Wong Kun taught at Hoi Fung at one time so the Hoi Fung Si in Lung Ying's history could quite possibly be him.

The other interesting part is of course is Ng Mui. It is said that the most advanced forms Fa Kuen Sui Ma, etc... were from her teaching and Chee Sim also taught Fa Kuen and wooden dummy. At one point of time, Lung Ying had a wooden dummy " form". But it would seem that it is a lost art in the style.

So it is quite possible that there is a link between White Crane (Wing Chun) and a whole lot of southern styles. The so called southern styles could also be link to northern styles. This just goes to say that Kung Fu is about evolution. The myths might yet have some truths behind them. But a lot more research needs to be done to verify things. So for now this is something to whet your appetite.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Ao Qin]

Thanks very much Joe Doe and Mantis 108! Lots of good info here.

I went for tea with a local Ngo Cho Sifu in Winnipeg, and wanted a bit of background information so I wasn't completely daft on the subject! We're going to swap notes, and see how close our styles are in theory and practice.

Cheers - AQ

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Ao Qin
Thanks very much Joe Doe and Mantis 108! Lots of good info here.

I went for tea with a local Ngo Cho Sifu in Winnipeg, and wanted a bit of background information so I wasn't completely daft on the subject! We're going to swap notes, and see how close our styles are in theory and practice.

Cheers - AQ

Cool man, let us know how it goes. Always interested in hearing about other Ngor Chor practitioners.

[BSH]

The 5 elders is a term coined by Jim Lacy, noted fraud. But there is a history told of 5 monks/nuns who escaped the destruction of Shaolin temple in the 1600's.

GM Doo Wai is the 6th generation Grandmaster of Bak Fu Pai which was the system of Fong Doe Duk, who along with Bak Mei, Gim Shim Shee (sp?), Ng Mui, and Mew Hing were the 5 who escaped.

But these terms have been used by many as revisionist history to define many questionable arts. So who knows what is real and what is fake anymore now. Who cares? The proof is in the results.

[cerebus]

From what I understand, Jim Lacy was a top disciple of GM Doo Wai and had the grandmastership of the 18 Daoist Palms system passed to him by GM Doo Wai. I've never heard of GM Doo Wai contradicting this or of anyone questioning Doo Wai's authenticity. Why do you consider Lacy to be a fraud?

[Dale Dugas]

Lacy has been unmasked as to what he truly is. Cerebus you must be on another planet or aligned with the handicapped man mentioned.

He is nothing, and has nothing to offer to the Chinese martial arts community. Jung Shee Doo Wai on the other hand has been recognized and has been teaching Kung-fu for years.

Any questions, feel free to email me or call me at 781-243-9711. I'll gladly eddify you on the situation.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[cerebus]

Wow. Didn't expect such a response. Well Dale, maybe I AM on another planet (Oakland, CA sure feels like it ).

No, I'm not aligned with Lacy, I've never met the guy. I just know about him from what I've read in books, mags and internet. What is there about him that's so terrible and secret that it can't even be mentioned on a public forum?

I guess I haven't been on the same planet as you, 'cause I was unware that Lacy had been "unmasked" (isn't it more Ashida Kim who's been "unmasked"? ).

You do give props to Doo Wai however. Does that mean that Lacy DIDN'T really train under DW?

I don't know you, so I'm not going to send you a personal Email and I really don't know why this can't be discussed publicly, but if you'd care to PM me, I'll keep whatever you say to myself. Thanks. T.

[Brad]

From what I understand, Jim Lacy was a top disciple of GM Doo Wai and had the grandmastership of the 18 Daoist Palms system passed to him by GM Doo Wai. I've never heard of GM Doo Wai contradicting this or of anyone questioning Doo Wai's authenticity. Why do you consider Lacy to be a fraud?

This is from cyberkwoon, and pretty much sums up everything I've ever heard about Lacy:

To all fellow martial artists:

My name is Dale Dugas. I had to post and let people know that Jim Lacy is nothing what he claims to be. He is not even a decent martial artist. No system claims to have hundreds of forms other than Shaolin-Do and other questionable styles which have been made up in the minds of these pseudo-master wannabees. Choy Li Fut has about 200, but they will tell you that no one person knows all of them.

18 Daoist Palms is but a form from within the Bak Fu Pai(White Tiger Style) Kung-fu of Jung Shee/Jo Si Doo Wai. It is most definitely not a system of martial arts that contains hundreds of forms.

The Bak Fu Pai system has been around in this nation for 40 years or so. Sifu Douglas Wong of Shaolin White Lotus is one of GM Wai's students as well as Terry Dunn of Flying Phoenix Meditations. The Flying Phoenix Meditations are from the Bak Fu Pai.

Anyone with half a brain can go to Jim's website and see how he moves. He claims to have studied for 10 years and became a Grandmaster. Pure fabrication on his part.

I have been involved with Jung Shee Wai for over 14 years. If using Jim's model for training to be a Grandmaster, than I should be a GM in my own right. But I am not, I am only a serious student.

18 Daoist Palms is nothing and never will be anything other than Jim having his extension students making up forms and recording them for him to sell to unsuspecting people.

You do not see him doing much of anything other than hammer away at coconuts and old clips of him doing rather low level Kempo on his website. If he is the Grandmaster that he claims to be, how come he cannot perform the forms which he purports to have?? Because he is cannot. He does not know any. He is a good example of a fraud. There are people who have taken him to court and have started litigation against him for fraud. Do not be taken in by him. He will take your money and give you nothing.

So Buyer Beware. Anyone interested in learning more about the authentic Bak Fu Pai system, please surf to: http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com or http://www.tigerkungfu.com or contact me at my email address through this site.

I thank you.



_________________
In Boston,

Dale Dugas

The sokeship council that he belongs to is pretty much there to give each other awards, and certificates. I know of 2(maybe 3) local teachers that have been involved with this group, and all 3 are defenite frauds(and 2 of them were in their Hall of Fame!).

[cerebus]

Interesting. Has Doo Wai ever spoken out about Lacy? If so, what has he said? I recall seeing photos of certificates (in one of Lacy's articles, I believe) which Lacy claims were from Doo Wai, naming Lacy as the current "grandmaster" of the 18 Daoist Palms "system" (if it is a system).

Also, if Lacy trained with Doo Wai for 10 years, how is it that he doesn't know any of the forms that Doo Wai teaches (as claimed by Mr. Dugas)?

[fiercest tiger]

hows things been bro, my phone line has been down so i couldnt really get online for a chat.

BFP is real

FT

[cerebus]

I don't doubt the authenticity of BFP. I just have to wonder at people claiming Lacy to be a fraud and saying that he doesn't know anything, but not giving any real specifics or facts to back their contentions up.

Lacy's site is very specific as to when he received his "Sifu", "Master" and "Jung Shee" titles from GM Doo Wai and shows the letter from Doo Wai naming him as the grandmaster of the 18 Daoist Palms system. As I've mentioned before, I've never heard of GM Doo Wai ever contradicting this. So far, it seems to be only other students who are calling him a fraud.

Can anyone shed more light on the matter?

[Brad]

Here's their forum, so you can ask directly. I know zilch about GM Doo Wai himself.

http://www.whitetigerkungfu.com/cgi-...finalrecord=14

[Brad]

I decided to go ahead and start a topic on it over there.