bong sau positioning

[mun hung]

In your opinion, what is the proper positioning for the bong sau? How high are the elbow and wrist? What degree is the arm bent? Is your hand in the center line or your wrist? What position is your hand in? What are the advantages of doing it your way?

[nowhesings]

A problem for me regarding the bong sau, is my arms and shoulders are not very flexible so I have to keep a rather horisontal bong sau. It works anyway, but would perhaps work better if the angle was bigger. Anyway I think the Kung Fu style should adapt to me, not the other way around (since that'd break my arm!).

[Armin]

Hi Mun Hung!

Well, I know two ways of performing a Bong Sao. The first is the WT-way: your Ellbow builds a line from your shoulder to your partner's shoulder (except of the low Bong Sao, of course), the wrist is on the middle-line, the arm is bent about 120 to 130° and goes down in a c. a. ankle of 40 to 50°.

The second way is the WSL-VT Bong Sao, where the ellbow is always in front of my shoulder, the wrist on the middle-line and in front of breastbone (somehow).

Personally, I prefer the WT-Bong Sao, not only because it's more flexible to the situation (all the VT-guys will lynch me for this), but because I have more expereince in using the WT-one.


Armin.

[Wei Sui]

This is how I was taught...I am still trying to do this without raising my shoulder.

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-Wrist lies along your centerline
-Tricep would be flat (ie. if you were to put your tricep against wall, it would lie parallel to it)
-make sure you are not raising your shoulder (will tense you up)
-elbow the highest point, wrist to the lowest
-your hand should be fully relaxed
-shoot forward and flip elbow up (can use the knees for additional power)
**********

I am not saying this is the right way but just how I was taught to do it..it seems to do the job for me.

Curious to see how other do this:)

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[old jong]

Bong sao can be used at medium or low levels so the positionning may varie. the teaching of different schools may varie too so,it is better to work on your variation to make it good and effective!...I really don't want to get into "my bong sao" or" my kwan" or "my tan" thing!...Does it works?...Yes?...O.K. then! ;)

C'est la vie!

[Wei Sui]

Old Jong,

I totally agree that one should experiment with their bong sau to find one that works best for them. This said, I also see value in exploring how others execute theirs so that we may find improvements, etc (ie. if yours works, how do you execute it? Perhaps what you write may help help me someone else out)

Cheers

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[Eric]

In Pan Nam style the elbow comes up even with the shoulder then the wrist and hand are down near the navel.

I agree that one should find what works for them and go with that. Don't get caught up with having perfect form, Wing Chun is not a forms competition. Spend more time worrying about technique.. When your technique is right your form will come naturally.

[Sharky]

i've always been told to do it with elbow at ear level, wrist just below chin.

[S.Teebas]

We aim to hold the center with the wrist, and prefer to have the wrist silghtly higher than the elbow (in the position you call bong sau).... Bong sau is actually the name given to the process of rolling from tan, to fook, to bong. It, being a process rather than a set or fixed position, allows flexability for different situations/energies recieved.

[tnwingtsun]

Thats the key,but position in the initial learning
stages is critical,I'll have to agree with Armin
on the angle,125-135 degrees is what I was taught.
My first challange was getting my shoulder to relax and hinging at the shoulder joint making sure not to collaspe and keep structure.

[Troy]

how the **** can you have your wrist above your elbow

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

[jameswebsteruk]

A quick comment on the WSL bong sao - the bong sao drives the elbow towards the opponents opposite shoulder, as your hips turn. The bong finishes with your centre, wu sao (or punching hand), elbow, and opponents centre in a straight line. The WSL bong tends to be lower than that of other styles I have seen.

The whole point of this is not a defensive move, but an offensive one, you divert the opponents force sideways, so you can hit him. The beauty of the WSL bong is that you can hit straight over it, without having to lap sao first. Why do two moves when one will do?

Eventually, you can bong and hit simultaneously, for the ultimate in directness and simplicity.

[Sharky]

er... wrist higher than elbow?

[mun hung]

Thanks for posting, gentlemen. I have found it to be very interesting as well as educational. Not to confuse anyone, but the bong sau positioning I was referring to was not the low one, but the standard one we all use in chi-sau. Ideally, this would be against someone identical in height punching to your face.

The reason why I started this topic was not for us to critique each other, but to find out the differences in structure and application within our art, and maybe try to understand the different interpretations we all represent.

nowhesings told us how kung fu should adapt to him due to his physical limitations. I personally agree with what he's trying to say. Maybe that in itself explains some of the different positions we see today. Who knows?

Armin expressed how he had learned it two ways, and even explained why he preferred one over the other.

Wei Sui, I'm pretty interested in how you "shoot forward and flip elbow up". What are you shooting forward? And at which point do you flip your elbow up?

Eric, can that Pan Nam bong sau be applied to a straight punch to the face? How then? If not, what is your application?

S. Teebas, can you please explain why your wrist is higher than your elbow? How high is your elbow? Could you please explain your application?

Frank Exchange, you said that you can punch straight over the WSL bong to hit your opponent. Can your opponent also punch straight over your low bong to strike you too? Do you start off with the bong sau in a low position, or do you lower it after contact?

A new question for you all - what position would your bong sau be in against a very tall or shorter opponent. What would your stucture be like? Should you lean back, lean forward or raise your arm accordingly? Or both?

Thanks for sharing such valued information with the likes of me. ;)

[Sharky]

i'd list my elbow as high as possible, and have my wrist low as possible, offering the greatest amount of spark to catch a punch. I haven't been taught to do this, i just think that's what i'd do!

Edd

My anus is superior