More basics

[puja]

As far as I 've heard normal abdominal breathing is supposed to be for gathering qi whereas reverse abdominal breathing is for qi strengthening. But I'm not sure about that.
Would be glad if someone could explain and perhaps point out the different usuages of the two methods (when do I use which breathing..)

Best regards,

puja

[Buddy]

Sorry I'm very busy right now but promise to get back to these. Briefly- At this point to discuss breathing would only complicate things. At first we just breathe regularly and not think of the breath. It's pretty certain you won't forget to breathe. Second we try to breathe into the abdomen. But here's a clue, you can't really breathe into the abdomen. You can only breathe into the lungs. Ha! So why do we say breathe into the abdomen? Reverse breathing is for pressurizing the body.
Later,
Buddy

[puja]

You're right buddy we don't really breath into the abdomen. Abdominal breathing is only intended to first fill the lower lungs, which are not filled with usual breast-breathing, but after that fill the rest of the lungs like in normal breathing, too. This way we can get much more air and with that oxygen into our body and are able to breathe much more calmly and relaxed.

puja

[BAI HE]

.. and create pressure. It can't be stressed enough.
Pressure working with the principles of gravity, BOOM! IMA.
Pressure and gravity work hand in hand, everything from bone density to the liquid presure within our bodies may equal IMA when manipulated and implemented in a correct fashion....

Just a theory, but one I'm starting to chase down.

[Buddy]

It's a bit more than that. If I say, breathe into some other part of the body, we can't really do it. No more than we can breathe into the abdomen. You're right that aspect is to fill the whole lung. But more importantly we use the breath to train the mind. The important thing is to learn to use the yi to be able to access and manipulate the internal body. So first we learn to use the breath to do that with the muscles, etc, that are directly and indirectly involved when we breath, ie the torso. Then we can realize that we can use a similar idea (the mind) to control other (and all) areas of the body. Make sense? It might not if you are a beginner. It didn't to me. When I first heard about this I had no basis for understanding it. When I have time I'll start another thread or maybe here to describe how I learned and teach this breathing. I can move almost any part of my body at will. For me it's kind of a trick. But not really a trick. It's just that it's no big deal but really useful.

[LeoV]

Originally posted by BAI HE
.. and create pressure. It can't be stressed enough.
Pressure working with the principles of gravity, BOOM! IMA.
Pressure and gravity work hand in hand, everything from bone density to the liquid presure within our bodies may equal IMA when manipulated and implemented in a correct fashion....

Just a theory, but one I'm starting to chase down.

Keep in mind too the pressure in reverse breathing is also massagaing your organs. Keep them nice and healthy and working...

I agree with Buddy (which I guess I should since what he's been writing is exactly how he taught me) that beginners shouldn't worry about the breath so much. My perspective on this is that a beginner's mind is so locked up in the mechanics of the exercise (is this aligned? Is this right? Am I balanced? etc.) that it's not free to focus on the breathing. As Buddy mentioned, you need your mind to work the breath. If it's not there, then you really cannot work it.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by LeoV
My perspective on this is that a beginner's mind is so locked up in the mechanics of the exercise (is this aligned? Is this right? Am I balanced? etc.) that it's not free to focus on the breathing. As Buddy mentioned, you need your mind to work the breath. If it's not there, then you really cannot work it.

Sure the mind is locked on body mechanics, but only until those body mechanics become an inate systematic response that the body can perform on its own, without thought. Once this is acheived I believe the mind should then focus on breathing. And just like body mechanics, it'll focus on it until it becomes second nature to breathe at the right times.

As soon as both are acheived, the mind may be released altogether, and you may react accurately, and without thought.

[Buddy]

Mike,
While I agree with the whole of your statement, I disagree with its parts. Before thinking about breathing one must concentrate on just the mechanics. That said I teach them somewhat concurrently. However its more important for the beginner to develop a sense of a. not fighting gravity (releasing downward) and b. the expansion of the body upward. As it is my thread I think we will stick to my model. I appreciate your comments, but they are not in keeping with my teaching model. Perhaps you can start a thread on breathwork. I'd be happy to throw my two cents in.

[Buddy]

So with my two threads and Mikes about breathwork, interest died. Pity. But good luck anyway.

[shawnsegler]

Sorry,

I haven't been checking this forum much lately.

Buddy, I'm actually quite interested in the training methods to direct the breath to different parts of the body.

When I learned the tai chi spinal stretch, I remember we spent a whole weekend doing exercises and touching each others spines to try and move the vertebrae with the breath. I can do it now to a certain extent, but because I was so conentrated on other things at the time (and billions of brain cells lost to alchohol after my divorce) I can't for the life of me remember the specifics of what I did to learn it, and would love it if you would elaborate a little.

If not I understand, but I think it's a fascinating apect of these arts.

Best wishes,

Shawn.

[Yaksha]

This is a very high quality thread, you guys should listen to Buddy more closely. I do this qigong myself, and I must admit it has improved my fighting ability vastly.

I do not think I could have described nearly as well as Buddy has, so listen up! This guy knows what he's talking about!

[CD Lee]

Buddy said

Well... hmmm.
Did anyone actually do the exercise? I doubt it. I did it for four months before learning the next step. I stopped doing everything else I had learned up to that point.

Buddy, really enjoying your thread here. You have put in a lot of things, just curious, are you talking about standing as you described as the excercise? Or the letting go, or both?

Not sure about your past, but when I started Xingyi, all we did at first was exactly the things you have been describing. One year, no forms, just standing and excersices to move, shift, and step properly. Although we have progressed to the elemenal fists, I still do them. Of course standing is a daily thing.

Don't get discouraged here with all these folks if possible. Depending on the experience levels, and teachers, you will get:

1. Those who have done the methods you describe, and get some validation to thier arts methods.

2. Those who have done a little of something, but did it externally, and might try some of your ideas, but probably not.

3. Those who have done nothing, and may try it, but will not understand the real value of it, and may be very cursory in their ability to sustain meaningful practice.

4. Somebody who is a true beginner, and really is doing what you say, but this takes time, so there will be no sudden deluge of questions. All our newest students, we have to beat questions out of anyways. They don't know what they don't know.

Keep up the good work.

I would like to get your email, I have some questions for you that are not appropriate on this thread or forum. You can email me your address if you are inclined to cldavis33@yahoo.com

[Buddy]

<<First, thank you for replying. As long as you do I will try to continue to write. I am a poor corrospondant but will do my best as long as there is interest. I suspect most would not be so open.


Buddy, really enjoying your thread here. You have put in a lot of things, just curious, are you talking about standing as you described as the excercise? Or the letting go, or both?


<<Truly I forget which thread I'm talking about. The standing thread, right? Let go in the standing. Let go and don't deny gravity. THen stretch up and then let go some more. Its an interplay between yin and yang

Not sure about your past, but when I started Xingyi, all we did at first was exactly the things you have been describing. One year, no forms, just standing and excersices to move, shift, and step properly. Although we have progressed to the elemenal fists, I still do them. Of course standing is a daily thing.

<< Yup. First year I did Santi and Piquan only. I had already done three years of just neigong (not doing what I had previously learned, just a bunch of forms)

Don't get discouraged here with all these folks if possible. Depending on the experience levels, and teachers, you will get:

1. Those who have done the methods you describe, and get some validation to thier arts methods.

2. Those who have done a little of something, but did it externally, and might try some of your ideas, but probably not.

3. Those who have done nothing, and may try it, but will not understand the real value of it, and may be very cursory in their ability to sustain meaningful practice.

4. Somebody who is a true beginner, and really is doing what you say, but this takes time, so there will be no sudden deluge of questions. All our newest students, we have to beat questions out of anyways. They don't know what they don't know.


<<Good point. But almost nobody responds or PMs me. Obviously I'm giving away a lot of good stuff. I paid with a lot of time and a lot of money. I just want the current level to improve. So as long as someone listens and rsponds, I'll go on.

[Buddy]

CD,
Write me at buddytripp@lungmen.org

[Yaksha]

I've done and still do the exercises you've mentioned so far, but it seems that you will be getting into stuff that I'm not familiar with soon. I'm patiently waiting for that, because it will do me a lot of good to improve my practice. I don't know a lot about bagua except I've tried the first palm change and it really gets my good juices going from all the twisting. I've never learned anything about bagua except the pure external stuff.

If it would motivate you to keep these lessons going, I will respond more often.