Cowardice vs. Sheeplike stupidity

[Water Dragon]

WTF are you talking about Phrost?

I quoted the part about not liking to fight yet still training to fight. Where did terrorism come from?

IMO, there is a big differtence between putting on some gloves and going at it in training and enjoying fighting in the streets.

I don't enjoy fighting in the streets, but I can if need be.

Please don't involve me in political rhetoric, I'm not interested. Thank you

[Stacey]

Originally posted by Phrost


Ok.

Saddam sends $10M to Al Qaeda who spends it on training people to fly airplanes and other such ventures.

Not your problem.

Six months later, the pilot crashes an explosives laden private plane into a nuclear reactor, wiping out 100 sq miles of a state in which you don't live, killing thousands of your countrymen.

Not your problem.

The power grid for the area goes out, causing that state's economy to collapse.

Not your problem.

Unfortunately, a few members of your company's board of directors take a major hit financially as a result, and decide to sell your company off in pieces.

Still not your problem?

You get laid off, and because the economic burden of the now radioactive state is being shared across the nation, you cannot find work in your chosen field.

Your problem?

Since you can look so far into the future, maybe you should look into the past and see that oppressed people will find a way to strike back.

a handful of men, crippled the US economy, sent shockwaves of fear that fueled blind rage patriotism. How did the do it? They had the will and nothing to lose. WHY did they do it. Because the US has used its influence to oppress the third world and warlord the middle East's oil. Our puppet state Israel ***** slapps palestine around. And our general foreign policy is based on orientalism that has survived in our literature and stereotypes since the Crusades and the Ottoman Empire. So the Hell you fear the US becoming is worse than the Hell these terrorists come from that was made largely impart to the US government.

Trying to oppress terrorism to death is like trying to stamp out napalm. It only spreads the seeds of terrorism. Look at the Irish Republican Army? How long was Ireland conquered and how many generations after did they continue guerilla activity, funded mainly by US citizens. Oppression didn't help. Oppression won't help us either. The only way the US will become as you say is if we follow Bush on his blind path to oblivion.

[Mr Punch]

While this thread has gone a long way in pointless unrelated argument... this example of rhetoric takes the biscuit:

Originally posted by Phrost

Saddam sends $10M to Al Qaeda who spends it on training people to fly airplanes and other such ventures.
...

OK, let's stop there for a second. Can you tell me where there is any proof that Saddam sent any money to Al Qaeda, people who were fundamentally diametrically opposed to his regime?

If the choice of whether to fight is going to be based on the accuracy of the information you are given, I would have to agree with Phrost. So that's, if you believe the tissue of BS all through this war, you are a coward for not being there.

But then, if you believe the tissue of BS all through this war, you are a sheep for being there. A brave sheep, but a sheep nonetheless.

(I'm not including the men and women who were already serving, I'm talking about the people who joined up.)

It's difficult to draw the line between political expediency and falsehood, but if my country (which in this case equates to my government) was gonna expect me to serve, I would be expecting to be given enough proof that my country was doing somewhere near a morally defensible thing (I wouldn't be naive enough to want 'proof' that it was 'right'), so that I could make a value judgment.

Some things in war are not down to value judgment: if you believe that rape and torture in modern society (and war) are right in any way, you are welcome to stand there like the sheep you are, grinning for the camera like England, Graner did and our friend YinYangDagger probably would.



Do a search... hell just go to that weblog that Jun-erh posted a while back. The servicemen who are doing their (and their countrymen's) duties out there are also questioning why the **** they're there - why what they're being told isn't matching up to what they're seeing... but still managing to do a better job of being ambassadors to the values of the United States than that assmunky Bush.

[Xebsball]

of course theres proof Mat
how dare you not believe the govment

they got proofs like they got proofs of the wmd of course

know what i think you are Mat? You are a unpatriot coward who isnt at the war fighting cos youre a coward

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by Xebsball
[B]of course theres proof Mat
how dare you not believe the govment

they got proofs like they got proofs of the wmd of course

"Proof we don't need no stinking proof."

[Mr Punch]

Good guess Xebs, good guess.

But I'm not at the war because I don't believe in my government's reasons for believing in the Bush Admin's reasons for being there. The paradox is: I'd fight to keep that freedom of choice, but I'd wanna be sure I'd be fighting the right people.

And I'm too old to join up!

Right now, through the laws of its government and the paranoia of extremist politics, the people of the US (judging by this board) seem as far from free as they have been since it was a colony.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Stacey
WHY did they do it. Because the US has used its influence to oppress the third world and warlord the middle East's oil.

This is a popular theory, but it doesn't seem to accord with the facts of the situation. France and Canada are among the top targets for the terrorist organizations you allude to. It seems that if the issue was specifically with America, let alone specifically with recent American actions, this wouldn't be the case.

[Christopher M]

... to my previous argument against judgements based on imputed motives, I would add this:

Many people's primary complaint regarding the war seems to concern their understanding of the official justification offered for it (eg. WMD). However, it seems that this understanding has been informed by a media whose interests are other than simply providing an objective account of the situation, and who have dramatically misled readers in this case. It would be unfortunate if most people's opinions on so important a matter as this were derived from media spin rather than fact. Again, this would be an argument in favor of judging events in terms of their actions and consequences rather than in terms of imputed motives.

[BentMonk]

The Iraqis did put out a video of an American being beheaded...AFTER all the pics and vids of our guys acting like drunken frat boys at a hazing were common knowledge. Again to those soldiers in the pics, if you're going to do that kind of stuff, keep the freakin' cameras out of it, duh. This is defenitely a case of two wrongs not making a right. Still, as I said before war is and always will be ugly business. I totally supported going and attacking those responsible for 9/11. Of course had something been done about Bin Laden back in the 80s when Ollie North tried to warn everybody about him, 9/11 would never have happened. We have whooped enough a$$ to avenge 9/11. That a$$ kicking should have been over six months ago. ALL of our soldiers should now be home with their families where they belong. Bush's idea about trying to kill every terrorist is like trying to kill every ****roach, it'll never be done. The US needs to get its nose out of every one elses business, and get busy fixing its own backyard. Yes we live in a great country. I am thankfull that I have freedom. If somebody comes in my yard and tries to take it, God help them. I am not going to go attack my neighbors on the next block because I don't like what they're doing to my other neighbor. It is my neighbor's responsibility to defend himself just like I do. If my house and yard are straight, and my neighbor asks for my help, it will be given. However, I will not neglect my own house to go and save his. Nor will I begin attacking the rest of the neighborhood looking for criminals that might be lurking around. This is exactly what the US is doing. Bush wants to be the number one oil dealer in da hood. He used 9/11 as an excuse to start whacking the competition. After you've avenged the death, your motives for continued killing do matter, no matter how eloquently you may say that they do not. Peace.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Bentmonk good post.

Read an interesting article about the current war and it's monetary cost so far USD 119 BILLION.

Alternative uses for the same price:
1.) Star Wars project x 2.
2.) Giving EACH Iraqi 4500+USD (8 times their average annual income).
3.) Benefits/Aid for the 20% of Americans that live below the poverty lines, etc.
4.) fixing of pension fund.
5.) etc. etc.

In another article I also read an interesting quote (not accurately reproduced):

"A safe American is an American that is internationally liked and respected."

Makes me wonder if the money could have been used in other ways that would produce more long-term benefits than the current war.

Peace.

[omarthefish]

2.) Giving EACH Iraqi 4500+USD (8 times their average annual income).

wow.

I wonder how that would have worked. Like if we just went in there and bought there support. I mean in America you can get votes for a crummy $450 tax rebate. Imagine how popular Bush would be if he just sent us all checks for $4500. And with a country small enough that we could do for real... boggles the mind.

Funny thing is, I almost wonder if we might even still get those sweetheart construction deal and oil profits. I mean, if we went in there and just said, "look everybody, I know you guys think were evil and all but here's 3 years pay if you'll just open up your markets for us and let us hire our own companies to bring you folks into the 1st world."

Would they welcome us then?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BentMonk
AFTER all the pics and vids of our guys acting like drunken frat boys at a hazing were common knowledge.

I don't remember any drunken frat boys sodomizing each other with light bulbs, or forcing others to ejaculate into someone else's mouth. Those pictures you see on the news every night are the tip of the iceberg, not the whole story.

[BentMonk]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I don't remember any drunken frat boys sodomizing each other with light bulbs, or forcing others to ejaculate into someone else's mouth. Those pictures you see on the news every night are the tip of the iceberg, not the whole story.

Point taken. My analogy was as mild as the pics on the news. Still I've said twice that war is ugly. We all know that it was worse than the pics they let everybody see. That's why everybody's so pizzed off. There is no dignity or honor in either side defiling POWs. Yes there is a time to fight, but many of the fiercest warriors in history fought with honor and allowed their enemies to die with dignity. The actions of a few have over shadowed the good deeds of the many.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Those that would assert Martial Artists that choose to exercise common sense over dictated agression are cowards, are, themselves, deluded and cowards.. If you're not there, in combat, you are just empty words.. oh, what excuse do you have? get with your own philosophy, Mercenaries are looking for some simple-minded souls..

I was anti war, but went to Viet Nam (1969-1971).. i am anti war, now.. and if you think i am a coward you are sadly mistaken.. war, for a worthwhile cause (defense of the nation), is honorable and necessary.. Iraq is a poorly executed joke.. US foreign policy is a poorly conceived plan to maintain our world dominance, sustain our lavish economy, and further demonize the US image in the eyes of the rest of the world..

The mental requirements to make the statement that Martial Arts = war is so shallow as to be unmeasureable.. martial arts are disciplines that train us to be prepared for war, not to initiate it, not to suggest that it is a valid tool for negotiating national issues.. only to prepare us for it, if it should actually be necessary..

i am amused by the simple-minded folks that spout such nationalistic nonsense as Phrost.. folks that see martial arts as training for war.. martial arts are for preserving life, period. there may be times when war is the method for preserving more lives than not, but to assert that rejecting war on grounds of common sense and principle equates to cowardice is too simplistic to be valid.. i participated in a war (Viet Nam) where 52,000 of my brothers and sisters lost their lives for what, retreat? we abandoned the South Vietnamese after we devastated their country.. the US's recent history suggests that we are not dependable, we tend to start big and leave small.. first and foremost, this government needs to look at the root causes of conflicts and address those before choosing war.. war is the easy option, changing imperialistic policies is more dificult.. actually honoring the notion that life is sacred has been so denigrated by society and government that war is accepted as a way to improve the economy, as a way to export democracy, a way to make other nations like the US..

Yikes, i'm rambling.. calling someone a coward for not believing like someone else is fundamentally without merit.. there many things i will sacrifice my life for, but.. dictatorial and poorly conceived national policy is not one of them..

Be well..

PS: Kudos to Phrost for a well conceived and executed troll.. but, thumps for purely simplistic notions of martial arts..

[red5angel]

where did this come from? I've never seen anyone on this forum accuse anyone else of being a coward cause they wouldn't go to war.