Anti-Chin Na?

[count]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Maybe.. but sometimes it's hard to tell what is obvious and what isn't. Afterall, people are discussing how to counter a move that someone would be hard pressed to pull off on a resisting opponent over the age of 13 with a bit of strength or athletic ability.

LOL! I totally agree with you there.

[GeneChing]

The 5th strategy - Shaolin Fan Chin Na: the Art of Anti-Grabbing by Chris Friedman

[Orion Paximus]

The 5th strategy - Shaolin Fan Chin Na: the Art of Anti-Grabbing by Chris Friedman

We incorporate Fan Chin Na into the regular Chin Na lesson plan. It gives you a better understanding of how the Chin Na itself can fail and what mistakes not to make in addition to showing you a few outs if you're on the receiving end. I never thought that anyone wouldn't teach Chin Na this way.

[wiz cool c]

Ever heard of choosing an interesting topic to spread the love of Chinese martial arts through an interesting article?

[bawang]

why wold anyone be anti china, I love the china

[David Jamieson]

Without going back through this, did anyone ever explain to the OP what Chin Na is and that it contains the attacks and defenses within?

[Jimbo]

IMO, much of Chin Na is already difficult to apply against a person who is actually resisting and fighting you. So it's only common sense that if you're actively fighting someone, it will be very hard for them to apply Chin Na locks on you. It doesn't need to be some complex countermove/counter-countermove/counter-counter-countermove, etc., unless you're interested for arts' sake. Nobody actually fighting you will just leave their hand or arm hanging out there for you to latch on to.

Anybody can look like a joint locking magician during a demonstration, or against someone who is already submissive or too injured to resist. But try actually using it on someone who has even the slightest level of determined resistance, anger/agitation, and especially if they have a size or strength advantage over you. Various types of bodies/physiques are also more difficult to grasp, twist and joint lock than others. I'm mostly referring to the types of standing joint locks that rely on fine motor skills to apply; the type that many CMA masters like to smilingly show off at demos. Similarly, the old late 19th/early 20th century stereotype in the West of the tiny Japanese Jujutsu master easily subduing a large brute (or two or three at once) with an effortless lock (often using only one hand) was a myth and a marketing ploy created by Western Jujutsu teachers to promote 'the art of self-defense' to 'cultured' men and women, most of whom were not physically inclined.

[David Jamieson]

IMO, much of Chin Na is already difficult to apply against a person who is actually resisting and fighting you. So it's only common sense that if you're actively fighting someone, it will be very hard for them to apply Chin Na locks on you. It doesn't need to be some complex countermove/counter-countermove/counter-counter-countermove, etc., unless you're interested for arts' sake. Nobody actually fighting you will just leave their hand or arm hanging out there for you to latch on to.

Anybody can look like a joint locking magician during a demonstration, or against someone who is already submissive or too injured to resist. But try actually using it on someone who has even the slightest level of determined resistance, anger/agitation, and especially if they have a size or strength advantage over you. Various types of bodies/physiques are also more difficult to grasp, twist and joint lock than others. I'm mostly referring to the types of standing joint locks that rely on fine motor skills to apply; the type that many CMA masters like to smilingly show off at demos. Similarly, the old late 19th/early 20th century stereotype in the West of the tiny Japanese Jujutsu master easily subduing a large brute (or two or three at once) with an effortless lock (often using only one hand) was a myth and a marketing ploy created by Western Jujutsu teachers to promote 'the art of self-defense' to 'cultured' men and women, most of whom were not physically inclined.

Locks are locks. Chin Na is a wide set of practices that cover locks, seizing, breaking the locks, etc. A headlock and it's counter are both chin na. A sleeper and it's counter are china na, a collar grab and it's counter is chin na and so on. Just because the name is Chinese doesn't mean it unrealistic. You'll find in Chin Na many of the same things you find in wrestling of many traditions under many appellations. It's a lot less mysterious than one might think and if you develop your strengths here, they won't leave you when you need them.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Though chin na usually follows a debilitating strike, chin na can be an attack in itself, such as quickly locking the throat of an adversary before he strikes you. There is nothing delicate about chin na. It requires strength and timing. One of the Eagle Claw principles is to have a claw strong enough to break bone.

mickey

[David Jamieson]

I think one of the issues in regards to perception of martial arts is that there are a great deal of people who wish to gain some sort of immunity to lifes violence and indignities.

Sadly, this is not there for anyone. the greatest boxers the world has ever seen have been punched in the face more than most anyone will ever be.
The greatest, strongest, most careful warriors get decimated by someone with a better plan, or even on an off chance.

the point is to train. Train while you can and enjoy training without the ultimate price of violent encounters that can overwhelm all the skills you have developed.

Don't look for infantile things like "the best" or "a favourite" or that sort of thing. Really, because there is no such thing. There never has been, there never likey will be. Human existence has a lot of offerings and paths anyone can wander. None of them will spare you from fortunes wheel and none of them will help you avoid your own death.

[mickey]

More....

Much of our impressions about the chin na have been formulated by teachings coming out of Hopei Province, China, where counters are usually made against a flat fist. More than some of these techniques may not work against a standing fist. It is important to understand that these techniques that have been preserved to form a template for continued study and development. The mistake lies in thinking that the techniques represent the EPITOME of continued study and development over countless generations. Wake up already!!! The concealed lesson of Chin na practice is the study of sensitivity to the flow of energy that will allow the practitioner to adjust his locks to his opponent.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Locks are locks. Chin Na is a wide set of practices that cover locks, seizing, breaking the locks, etc. A headlock and it's counter are both chin na. A sleeper and it's counter are china na, a collar grab and it's counter is chin na and so on. Just because the name is Chinese doesn't mean it unrealistic. You'll find in Chin Na many of the same things you find in wrestling of many traditions under many appellations. It's a lot less mysterious than one might think and if you develop your strengths here, they won't leave you when you need them.

That's why I clarified that I was referring to specific types of standing locks that are more complex and require fine motor skills to accomplish. I did not imply anything about it is mysterious. I did leave open the implication that Chin Na that utilizes more gross motor skills would be far more practical. It doesn't matter how powerful a grip you've developed, try catching a punch coming at you, as many masters like to do in demonstrations. A real punch with any speed and bad intentions behind it will be nearly impossible to catch and lock. It's the way that it's often presented that is unrealistic.

It should also be clear that I wasn't picking on Chin Na because it's Chinese. I made a clear comparison between the way Chin Na and traditional Jujutsu were/are often presented. They are related, obviously. Except that Jujutsu incorporated far more ground grappling (yes, even pre-BJJ).