Anti-Chin Na?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
first you argue with me for weks that chin na is even valid, then you discount my advice, because obviously you're all learned practioners....which is of course why the question was posted in the first place....do a freakin reality check...because you can laugh together and together you are acting more and more egocentric and foolish..................

Hang on, I thought the argument was about the validity of dim mak, not chin na. And for the record, I never got involved in that argument.

[SevenStar]

BL stated in that same thread that she thinks dim mak and chin na are one and the same. She also says that the founder of wing chun also founded dim mak. Of course, she's never provided evidence for either...

[Chang Style Novice]

Not only are chin na and dim mak the same, but striking and grappling are identical. Furthermore, both (or rather, the one) was invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1973 at the request of the Emperor Constantine.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
BL stated in that same thread that she thinks dim mak and chin na are one and the same. She also says that the founder of wing chun also founded dim mak. Of course, she's never provided evidence for either...

OK, I can accept that there are crossover elements in each set of skills, but if they are the same then why were they given different names?

[blooming lotus]

please see other current trolling threads...you're mising a good opp..................


Ps...pending where you're comming from, a grappling move is deffinately a strike with alternate apllication............IE: elements of hsing Yi...

Dimmak vs chin na....same concepts of points and manipulation of, different apps....but crossovers do occur and when you're studying several arts and develop that personal style, no doubt without you even realising the morph, your dimmak would be easily perceived as chin na...............and thats from chinese locals....

cheers

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... where you're comming from, a grappling move is deffinately a strike with alternate apllication ...

Grappling moves are strikes with alternate application? Really?

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Dimmak vs chin na....same concepts of points and manipulation of, different apps....but crossovers do occur and when you're studying several arts and develop that personal style, no doubt without you even realising the morph, your dimmak would be easily perceived as chin na...............and thats from chinese locals...

In the other thread you said dim mak is chin na, not dim mak is similar to chin na. So you're changing your definition now?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


please see other current trolling threads...you're mising a good opp..................


Ps...pending where you're comming from, a grappling move is deffinately a strike with alternate apllication............IE: elements of hsing Yi...

Dimmak vs chin na....same concepts of points and manipulation of, different apps....but crossovers do occur and when you're studying several arts and develop that personal style, no doubt without you even realising the morph, your dimmak would be easily perceived as chin na...............and thats from chinese locals....

cheers

Yes, I can accept that when you train the two skills and develop your own style etc. they can look the same, but dim mak is not chin na and chin na is not dim mak. They may look the same but they are two very different things.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
..............and thats from chinese locals....

please bring one of those locals to your PC and have them post here - maybe they can verify your statement that dim mak and wingchun have the same founder...

[CaptinPickAxe]

Dian Mai man or Dim Mak can is an element of Chin Na. Dim Mak equates to "pressing the artery or vein". It is, however, not one in the same with Qin Na.
Which is "Seizing and Controlling"...

This is info that I read (and adapted) off of page 1&2 in "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. See BL thats how you provide proof.

[Tak]

4 elements of qin na:
Locking the joints
Splitting the muscles
Sealing the breath
Attacking the vital points

Attacking the vital points is the "dim mak" component, although not in the sense of pressing a knockout button above the left eyebrow.

[Mutant]

First off forget the about leaning chin na or any kind of anti-chin na from books, thats something you need to feel and practice hands on w/ a competent instructor. Everything you need to know in order to counter/defeat a particular lock lies within a thorough understanding of that lock and the physiology behind it. You may be able to get some ideas from books or videos but your chin na will suk so why bother...

If for some reason you don't have access to good chin na people to learn from, which i assume is the case due to the nature of your question, try to find some good small-circle jujitsu or aikido club to cross-train with.

The suggestion of joining a tai chi push hands group is a good one.

I will also add that joining a good wing chun club would also be very benefitial cross-training as wing chun is essentially a form of anti-chin na (as well as having many other functions) and chi sau is great anti-chin na training. It is nearly impossible to apply a chin na lock on a good wing chun sifu, even though they don't practice chin na, it is the antithesis of chin na and a sort of key to those locks.

[Meat Shake]

I beg to differ. If you have a competent understanding of entries and standing locks already, simply looking at a picture of a lock and getting a feel for it with a friend is a fine way to learn it. Just figure out how the lock works, what nuances make it harder to escape, then work entries to that lock at increasing speed until you can successfully pull it off full speed on a resisting opponent. I dont remember who, but someone on here had told me not too long ago something about how its "impossible to get a standing figure 4 lock on a competent opponent"...
I use figure 4 locks all the time in conjuction with a chop or simply a T-stance. Its all about learning to work your way up from joint to joint.

[CaptinPickAxe]

So far I'm not having any problems picking it up. Its just takes trial and error and someone to practice on. I also let him practice on me so I can practice my blocking and counters.

[Vash]

BAH! Everyone knows you can't learn GENUINE TMA from taking techniques from books/videos, ESPECIALLY if you have a decent bit of working MA experience and tend to work on an increasing scale of resistance with an equally experienced training partner.

[Shadowboxer]

Ahh, but we do practice some chin-na and how to get out of it. You can keep adding pieces into your chi sao "progressions". The key to not getting locked is detecting the energy shift with your sensitivity, and by energy shift I mean someone's intention to attempt a lock from rolling or whatever.

I don't know if you could learn the fine details of chin-na from pics. Doesn't seem like you could perceive the "energies" (is the left hand pushing or pulling, what about the right, or are they squeezing together, maybe one is rotating to increase the pressure and take out the slack while the other is static, etc.) I suppose they could write that part out. Best to feel it though.