Opening movements

[Yaksha]

I've been told that the introduction to the forms is the most important and thats why its taught first, but there are some interesting differences between lineages.

the opening footwork is different. Most schools pivot their feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed, but some schools swing their feet and end up with parallel feet.
In my opinion, that is more effective because its more mobile and includes some basic evasive footwork, but if you have a different opinion, please tell me why.

Also Leung Ting, after crossing arms high and low, teaches a wierd inward folding of the arms. Whats that all about?

[lawrenceofidaho]

The wierd folding is just the kwun-sau (rotating arms) movement, except instead of a tan & bong (like in the dummy form), you are just doing it with the tan-sau positions.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

in the lineage I belong to, which is very similar to the TWC method, the opening(DBL X-wrist Tan-Sau-->Dbl X-wrist Gaun-sau-->Dbl X-wrist Tan-Sau) is a self-defence movement and also a way to determine one's central line, which means the area in which we can use both arms at the same time without pivoting our hips.
In combat using WC one must be able to touch the opponent with both hands (double palm strike per say) at all times, except during multiple opponent combat. This makes the chain punching/trapping methods of WC work more effectively. We also use the leg swing into parallel stance instead of the swivel into pigeon toe which limits movement in combat, IMHO

Sihing

[Toby]

OK, I'm just a beginner, but can you tell me how the x-wrist bit in brackets is a self defence movement? I would think you would avoid crossing your arms up except in very specific circumstances. Surely your opponent can easily control your two arms by controlling one when you're in that position?

Also, I doubt anyone that uses pigeon-toed stance in their forms would fight in that stance. Do you think that a fighter would (upon facing up to an opponent) swivel their feet out step-by-step into YGKYM? Does anyone fight in (their version of) YGKYM anyway? I thought it was for other purposes, least of them being a fighting stance.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Toby
Also, I doubt anyone that uses pigeon-toed stance in their forms would fight in that stance. Do you think that a fighter would (upon facing up to an opponent) swivel their feet out step-by-step into YGKYM? Does anyone fight in (their version of) YGKYM anyway? I thought it was for other purposes, least of them being a fighting stance.

IMHO, pivoting your feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed YGKYM is just a way to measure the correct width of your stance.

[S.Teebas]

....can you tell me how the x-wrist bit in brackets is a self defence movement?....

Toby,

I think that the movements in SNT are not actually a literal translation of fighting techniques, but more ideas on paths along which you can take to generate force. This relates to and is expanded in chi-sau, i.e. (the common saying) when your rolling you should just shoot forward and strike when there is nothing blocking our way. However, we rarely have the luxury of picking an ideal line to take.
This is because most people train to defend against the most common lines of attack: e.g. the straight punch, hook, and uppercut.

I believe chi sau takes this one step further and shows us that there are infinite lines of attack. It can destabilize the preconceived idea of what certain techniques are and how they should be delivered.

Knowing how to exploit someone’s weakness, and generate enough force to cause an impact, however, is another mater altogether.

Chi sau can teach us to take the unexpected route, and remain safe.

SNT points out some kea areas and movements that we can utilize. Through experience of chi-sau correctly - being relaxed and structurally supported enough to feel when there actually are gaps, and having the ability to make use of those opportunities are useful tools.

[Atleastimnotyou]

why is it that opening movement is used to "determine the centerline"? Arent you aware of your centerline at all times? Why does it need to be determined?

[reneritchie]

Toe-out and toe-in are two very important footwork concepts all their own, and are found across most lineages (not just Yip Man) of WCK, and thus are probably fairly old in terms of the chronology. Some teachers may have thought the circling more important, hence replaced it.

The inward rotation Leung Ting does is also found across the lineages, and is similar to what everyone does later in Bong/Tan transition (Kwun Sao to some). Reportedly, Yip Man simplified this for later students.

Note: Both hands cross together in the form for economy's sake. In real application, you can use either one by itself, in any sequence, or combined with anything else. It's like a dictionary, you don't read it in a linear progression or cross-column--you extract what you need when you need it. That part basically deals with idealized hand shapes for intercepting middle and low, and transitionining between the two.

(And they are literal fighting techniques as well. If they weren't you would also not be training economically. Every movement trains your body (tendons, etc.), develops power, and shows ideal positioning).

[imx]

Originally posted by Yaksha


the opening footwork is different. Most schools pivot their feet out into position ending up pidgeon-toed, but some schools swing their feet and end up with parallel feet.
In my opinion, that is more effective because its more mobile and includes some basic evasive footwork, but if you have a different opinion, please tell me why.

Also Leung Ting, after crossing arms high and low, teaches a wierd inward folding of the arms. Whats that all about?

It's hard to explain for me, it's a lot easier to show it, but I'll try.

Well, the IRAS, the character two adduction stance, the riding goat stance or pidgeon toed stance, as you call it, has many good purposes. The reasons, I know, of why we use it as a pre-fighting stance is that it makes the transition to the front-stance quicker. By pressing in our knees towards eachother and therefore make our toes point to one point in front of us, like a triangle. (Imagine a triangle, your feets are on the two points on the baseline while they point toward the upper corner.) Anyway since you are pressing your knees inwards there will be a "stored energi" and this energi will help you move forward faster as soon as you lift you foot, almost like a crossbow. Also the lower legs are aligned so that they point towards one point. The lower legs should be like spears pointing with an angle forward so that the force coming toward it is directed down to the ground. The stance will also help you to turn and redirect force easier. These are the practical reason for the IRAS as a pre fighting stance that I can remember right now, I'm not 100% sure though.

As for the the wierd inward folding of the arms, I don't know how you do it so I don't understand the difference. However, after the crossed gan sau we actually do the double kwun sau, which many practioners believe comes first in the wooden dummy form. One of the applications for the the single kwun sau is to deal with chained attacks along with the lower bong sau. So the kwun sau movement is the movement from gan sau to a sideling tan sau.

[couch]

As far as the SNT is concerned, I agree with Rene. As my Sifu put it:

The SNT is a dictionary, but with just a dictionary - you can't make sentences. ie: Our Gum Sao clears just to the hip. If I were to face my opponent while performing this move, I would likely still be hit. But it's the shift in my stance or the movement(even step in some lineages) that enables the block to be utilized.

The opening of the stance: toes first, then heels - helps to measure the width of your stance and comes from some Qigong training.

As well, IRAS (Leung Ting's), I've been told from a teacher of that lineage that it's like drawing a bow and then waiting to explode with movement (induction of the knees). - Just like imx has said! Must have missed that post!

Sincerely,
Couch

[AztecaPreist]

The average person coming in off the streets will have no concept of any body structers wich means learning centerline is vital. To know your self is key. The crossing of the hands is to give you a self measuring tool for your distances in a combat situation, Once again knowing yourself. All movements in the slt,slnt are movements done in combat and should be understood before moving on to chum ku. Each level of learning gives a better understanding for the next

[sihing]

Yes the SLT is like a dictionary, definitions of techniques are learned then applied to many, many sentences (applications),

Quote: Atleastimnotyou
"why is it that opening movement is used to "determine the centerline"? Aren’t you aware of your centerline at all times? Why does it need to be determined?"

In the lineage I belong to which partly comes from the TWC of GM Cheung, we use the Central Line Theory, which as I said before determines the area(basically between the knees when in neutral stance) in which two hands can be used at the same time without pivoting the hips. Centerline for my definition just means the line running down the center of the body from the top of the head to the area between the legs. In front stance the hips follow the knees which are 45deg either way depending on the lead established, the guard is more geared toward the front facing the opponent, 1 wu sao 3/4 extended the other wu sao close to the elbow, pointed in the direction of the centerline, protecting the upper gates.

We can use the Dbl X-Tan Sao for a double wrist grab defence, and there are some chi-sao applications also once in the X-arm or parallel front stance positions.

The leg swing is used to teach sweeps and such.


Sihing

[Shadowboxer]

The inward folding teaches you how to deal with your arms being trapped. Someone does a double lop sao on you and holds your arms in the Phon sao postion "X". At some point they will have to release a hand to punch you in the face, for example. When they release you rotate the released hand into tan. Try it with a partner to see what I mean.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
We can use the Dbl X-Tan Sao for a double wrist grab defence, and there are some chi-sao applications also once in the X-arm or parallel front stance positions.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I am not comfortable with the concept of crossing my arms/wrists. Not for this " double wrist grab defence", or any other. It's not required and can leave you in a weak and vulnerable position. ie. trapped. Is it just me, or what?

Bill

[Shadowboxer]

Did you see my reply before you posted?