Kung Fu and the UFC, which is more reality based?

[reemul]

Now unfortunately this usually isn't the case with most trad martial arts - so what you have to consider is this, are low contact drills or sparring in the kwoon as realistic as an actual NHB fight in a ring? Which is closer to reality?

Our school practices full contact and was doing so long before the UFC came along. The idea that cma dont do full contact, well for the most part in the US they dont, they have either been commercialized into the sport dance BS or some Karate practioners learned a butterfly kick and proclaims to be a KF instructor. I have gone to most of the KF school in my area and found none have full contact sparring sessions.

The closer you train to reality, the better and more prepared you will be for reality i.e. if you want to learn how to swim, you swim. With fighting, it is oft frowned upon to go out and pick fights, so your training has to be as close to reality as possible.

I'm not of the oppinion that UFC style training does not prepare you to fight, but training for UFC or any event with rules trains you to confine your thought patterns within the rules. And although we do not maim each other at our school we don't have a set of rules when it comes to sparring. Common sense and benevolence toward your peers is the only principle. This frees the mind to persue any and all techniques up to a point in their execution, rather then eliminating them all together. Unlike the UFC a nut shot is completely fine, because you are expected to know how to protect them when you become eligible to spar.

Strange that you would be so bad at figuring, considering that is the mainstay of your training.

What is funny you MMA guys think MMA is something new when MA systems have been training like this for centuries. The Shaolin Monastary (before the PRC version) is well known for exchanging knowledge with other MA systems. It not the idea of MMA that is idiocy just the idea that it is something new.

who wins a fight is dependent on many things, training, heart, tenacity, conditioning etc.. All BJJ'ers or MMA practioners are not going to get the best of all KF pracitioners and vice versa. To think that a KF pracitioner cant get the best of a BJJer or MMA is just ignorance. If you base your assumption on the UFC or MMA your limiting your hypothesis to a miniority in the MA community.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
Our school practices full contact and was doing so long before the UFC came along. The idea that cma dont do full contact, well for the most part in the US they dont, they have either been commercialized into the sport dance BS or some Karate practioners learned a butterfly kick and proclaims to be a KF instructor. I have gone to most of the KF school in my area and found none have full contact sparring sessions.

it's not only commercialized schools that don't spar. It's no secret that many traditional schools shun sparring for various reasons, and that applies to japanese styles as well as chinese. In japan, it was actually a SPORT style introduced sparring.

I'm not of the oppinion that UFC style training does not prepare you to fight, but training for UFC or any event with rules trains you to confine your thought patterns within the rules. And although we do not maim each other at our school we don't have a set of rules when it comes to sparring. Common sense and benevolence toward your peers is the only principle. This frees the mind to persue any and all techniques up to a point in their execution, rather then eliminating them all together. Unlike the UFC a nut shot is completely fine, because you are expected to know how to protect them when you become eligible to spar.


In all actuality, there is nothing wrong with confining your thought patterns, as you put it. How long have you trained? In that time, how many techniques have you learned? Of those, how many have you mastered? Of those, how many do you use in EVERY sparring session? I bet your thought patterns are fairly confined also, when you look at it that way.

As far as eliminating techniques, how necessary are the techniques that are eliminated? Keeping with your example of a nut shot, those often times are not fight enders. Adrenaline does a good job of hiding pain of such things. I've taken a nut shot in a fight, and didn't feel it until after the fight. Consequently, it didn't do the guy much good. These techniques that your thought patterns aren't confined to really don't leave you any better off than me, for example.



What is funny you MMA guys think MMA is something new when MA systems have been training like this for centuries.

No we don't, however, no they haven't. Not all of them, anyway. Many styles did hard contact drilling, but not actual sparring, particularly battlefield styles. They were learning to kill and could not practice such techniques safely.

The Shaolin Monastary (before the PRC version) is well known for exchanging knowledge with other MA systems. It not the idea of MMA that is idiocy just the idea that it is something new.

Once again, we don't claim it's anything new. However, it's odd that these centuries old systems that were founded on such exchanges in large part no longer do them....

who wins a fight is dependent on many things, training, heart, tenacity, conditioning etc.. All BJJ'ers or MMA practioners are not going to get the best of all KF pracitioners and vice versa. To think that a KF pracitioner cant get the best of a BJJer or MMA is just ignorance. If you base your assumption on the UFC or MMA your limiting your hypothesis to a miniority in the MA community.

you're turning this thread into something it's not. nobody brought that up.

[reemul]

In all actuality, there is nothing wrong with confining your thought patterns, as you put it. How long have you trained? In that time, how many techniques have you learned? Of those, how many have you mastered? Of those, how many do you use in EVERY sparring session? I bet your thought patterns are fairly confined also, when you look at it that way.

I think you and I are just coming from two different schools of thought here. In Shaolin KF You strive to free your mind so that all you practice comes forth without effort without conflict and without hesitation.
Given your practice as stated, it seems to me the focus is on primarily the physical, conditioning. The mindset seems to be for every attack there are specific counters. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

[blooming lotus]

work what you have to the safest extent you can, but when it comes down to it, an experiencd player has techs not just to pacify or maim , but to kill.no ego about it.it's life in the game...........I think what we're saying, sometimes It's just not practicle to train those things to te extent you could............what are going to kill all your kwoon members to try out your "head off spine " maouver......... there's an element of restraint but in working your regular arsenal ....it's probaby not a real good idea to go hard out .............sometimes you just gotta ( as I say to myself so often), TRUST WHAT YOU KNOW..............

[Dark Knight]

Lotus, how do you know the killing techniques will work? Have you tried them on someone?

From your comment of registering hands it looks like you have limited knowledge in the martial arts.

[blooming lotus]

is that right..........I only ask about registration because here in China there are so many adept players and notta one is registered............


at some point of your execution, logic of repurcussion to opponent kicks in , and death strike or not, makes no diff............


lets take a basic ninjitsu block outward, arm / shoulder lock, step under to rear, knee at spine base , rear triangle choke come carteroid-flow block-hold........ common sense tells us that if we twist outwards ( as the aim of the tech suggests ) ,,,you can guarantee his or her head'll detatch from their spine,

in practice though, I never go further than to apply the lock, just soft enough not to insight unconciousness, and feel some tourqe enough to make sure my app is on if necc..........

[Brooklyn Monk]

I support the opinion that TMA techniques simply don't work. if they did, a tai chi master ould go to the UFC and defeat Bas Ruten, or a Wu Su Sifu would go and win $150,000 by mopping up the floor with Mark Kerr or Randy Couture.

And please don't use the convenient counter argument of "True martial arts masters don't care about money. they care about teh art." That's just not the case. Shaolin monks have performed in martial arts movies, for money. many of them dream of going to foreign countries so that they can charge $150 per hour for classes. and anyone who reads my book knows about teh lage number of foreigners who have been sheated or ripped off by the teachers in china.

there is no question that these people want money. so why dont they jus go and win Pride or UFC?

TMA just doenst work. Muay Thai, Western Boxing, BJJ,and Wrestling are the only arts that can actualy fight and win.

[reemul]

limited experience.

I don't have to kill someone to know I can, not because of my training but because of who I am. Which is the case for most people. My training just provides the science to enable me to do it efficiently. MA Technique is science, if you do it right it will work. There is no time machine that is going to take you back to a time when the techniques had proven themselves to make you believers and it wouldn't matter any way to see someone else do it.
It seems your arguments are based on the fact that you have not witnessed the techniques in question. Nothing said here in the forums is going to change that.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Monk


TMA just doenst work. Muay Thai, Western Boxing, BJJ,and Wrestling are the only arts that can actualy fight and win.

I think this is largely for the reason that as opposed to olden day tma ( motivation asides), as tma split into so may styles, that you may or may not find in the one place, it's now harder to get a wholistically trained tma experience whereas ufc, crass and crude as I think it is, is more related to our current days' fighting maximaion needs and strategies unforunately providing a more rounded ma experience and covering more bases..................

[reemul]

To some the current Monastary is a fraud and lost what it once had. Now it is contemporary Wushu dressed as monks.

If UFC and Pride is all you base your assumptions on, again you are limiting your scope to a minority within the MA community. There are Plenty of KF who can hold there own against MMA. To say KF pracitoners don't enter cuz ther scared is ignorance.

[blooming lotus]

of course your right , and I 'm confident myself.........

on the monks............I guess we couldn't really claim to know what they are or aren't do and don't do in the moanastary,becuase for the most part,and shaolin-si training grounds and private quarters in particular, is off-limits to all but those who live there (ie : strictly monks and very limited piveledged few)

[Brooklyn Monk]

Reemul

To say I am ignorant of fighting or what people are studyiong or fightin in Asia is not quite accurate. I am a professional fighter. and I have been fighting and training in asia for about three years now. I also trained at Shaolin, and I saw the fighting they were doing. it was nothing compared to MMA.

It was nothing even compared to the Muay thai monastery in thailand or the boxing team here in Phnom Penh.

The reason I based my comment on UFC, Pride KOTC, K1...is that tehse are huge international events. anyone can enter, and yet tehse people don't. to me it's like you are saying i shouldnt base assumptions about the fastest mile on the out6come of the olympics. right now these MMA tournaments are the closest thing to a unified championship that we have in MA.

I didnt say the KF guys were scared. I said that they absolutely couldn't win. I may not have expressed myself clearly on that point.

[blooming lotus]

Brooklyn Monk

I know myself what they're teaching in Deng Feng and even at Tagou, and in that little saffron robed school with the wuseng figures / statues just before the temple entrance, because I was there myself, but how close , out of interest, and before I buy a plane ticket outta here, did you really to get to the closed monks' quarters and do you really believe, this is mind that you got an accurate take on what's happening there???

ps. will pm you for some decent live-in Aus connections in the nxt day or 2..........

cheers

BL

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
I think you and I are just coming from two different schools of thought here. In Shaolin KF You strive to free your mind so that all you practice comes forth without effort without conflict and without hesitation.
Given your practice as stated, it seems to me the focus is on primarily the physical, conditioning. The mindset seems to be for every attack there are specific counters. (please correct me if I'm wrong).

no, that's dead wrong. you are taught to be quite spontaneous. But, as I mentioned in the post you quoted, you aren't gonna master all of your techniques, and you won't be using them all either. so you are limited in what you will do. If you only train a willow palm a few times a week, or only in your forms, you won't use one in a fight, most likely. Take a judo practitioner. There are over 60 throws in the judo curriculum.

The avg competitor masters maybe three of them, and has about 8 that he will use on a regular basis. others he will use on occasion if the opportunity is blatantly presented, and there are some techniques that he will never use. the techniques they use are used quite spontaneously, but after years of competing, you have certain techniques you prefer and use most often. for example, when someone attempts a throw where they must turn their back to me, I usually counter with tani otoshi. Do I have to? know. I know more than that one. But, I do that one so much that 90% of the time it just automatically comes out. The only art I've seen dealing with specific counters is kenpo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul

MA Technique is science, if you do it right it will work.

Not really. Let's not forget that the science is a double edged sword. your technique may be perfectly correct, but if mine is also and I counter, then your technique didn't work. Perhaps MA isn't an exact science...



There is no time machine that is going to take you back to a time when the techniques had proven themselves to make you believers and it wouldn't matter any way to see someone else do it.

Here we go with the living in the past thing again... I really don't care what wong fei hung, chang tung sheng, harry wu, su dong chen or anyone else could do - can you reproduce their results? If not, then you really don't know that their technique will work for you - you are merely theorizing. That applies to any MA. If I had never stepped into a ring or competed in a shiai, I wouldn't know that MT or judo techniques were working for me, or which ones suit me best. I would only be theorizing based on what I have been taught. I prefer to have tested those theories BEFORE I am confronted in the street.


It seems your arguments are based on the fact that you have not witnessed the techniques in question. Nothing said here in the forums is going to change that.

tha's not true either. I don't have to apply an arm bar fully to know I can break your arm with it - that's obvious. I don't have to poke your eyes out to know that an eye gouge can be effective. That's obvious also. BUT, the difference between those two techniques is that I utilize an armbar every single day in class. I know that I can get myself in position to use that technique against a fully resisting opponent. You can't say the same about flesh ripping, eye gouges, etc. because you really have no safe way to train them.