Kung Fu and the UFC, which is more reality based?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

A good reference to see the techniques I’m writing about would be Yang Jwing Ming’s Chin Na books.

I've seen him in person. He's very skilled.

[Sim Koning]

I just got back from class and my back is killing me =(. Well anyway I talked to the guy in the video clip, Duncan Duffin, he is one our instructors at the school, he told me that he is flying to California to train with Cung Le as well as fight on his team. He has already trained with Shawn Liu. I guess he is going to fight one of the Fairtex guys and he wants me to spar with him to help prepare, mainly because I’m a good kicker like the Thai Boxer will be.

I guess all my point was with this thread is that there are a few Kung Fu schools out there that train for real combat as well as traditional forms and weapons. We even do kali stick and knife drills. Sometimes it can feel a little weird when you are showing a student how to kill someone with a knife, especially when you consider that his blood would probably spray in your face and you would have to watch a man die in front of you. You also learn really fast just how difficult it would be to defend yourself from a knife attack when the other guy is faking and resisting. I think way too many schools out there are risking people’s lives by teaching them knife and gun disarms that wouldn’t really work, I think the best way to learn how defend against a knife is to learn how to attack with one.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning

Depends on the school. A good kwoon teaches you in this order: basics, forms, two man drills, light contact free sparring, full contact free sparring. In my opinion this is the best way to train.

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long

All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition. Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn't bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person. An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact.

Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sim Koning
I just got back from class and my back is killing me =(. Well anyway I talked to the guy in the video clip, Duncan Duffin, he is one our instructors at the school, he told me that he is flying to California to train with Cung Le as well as fight on his team. He has already trained with Shawn Liu. I guess he is going to fight one of the Fairtex guys and he wants me to spar with him to help prepare, mainly because I’m a good kicker like the Thai Boxer will be.

Awesome! When is the fight? I'm currently training for the thai boxing nationals.

You also learn really fast just how difficult it would be to defend yourself from a knife attack when the other guy is faking and resisting. I think way too many schools out there are risking people’s lives by teaching them knife and gun disarms that wouldn’t really work, I think the best way to learn how defend against a knife is to learn how to attack with one.

I couldn't agree more.

[Sim Koning]

Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.

You mean like tiger claws, throat strikes etc…? We don’t, we put gloves on, but if you can punch a guy in the face, it doesn’t take much to change the formation of your hand and strike him with a more sophisticated fist technique, like a single or fore knuckle strike, its not that hard to strike a guy in the neck either, I’ve done that by accident with both me legs and my hands. The point is we train the nasty stuff in the forms, and we do it until they are perfected. Full contact training teaches you how to deliver the blow, though usually with a fist, that fist can easily become something else in a real fight, since the delivery method is essentially the same. The key in kung fu is to combine the two, forms and fighting. Full contact sparring has always been a part of shao lin, though in the past it was done bare knuckle and on a 5' raised platform.

As far as clawing and small joint manipulation, that can be done without causing serious injury, which leads me to wonder why its not allowed in the UFC, are they worried the crowd will construe it as cheating?

[Sim Koning]

Awesome! When is the fight? I'm currently training for the thai boxing nationals.

I'm not sure, I forgot to ask for some reason, I'll ask him again Monday and get back with on that.

[Shao Lin Long]

Out of curiosity, how do you train full contact with the techniques that shao lin long is referring to? During the tokugawa era of japan, jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned. sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo.

Yeah, what I meant in my post was kung fu Fighting(like the fighting applications of the forms.) A think what Sim Koning understand of kung fu fighting is ports fighting like san shou(which is called sparring not fighting). I understand this because now aday is hard to find school that this you how to fight like this,
even some traditionals, when they teach you how to FIGHT they teach you San Shou.

Seven Stars- and yeah, Sparring was around even before Shaolin kung fu started it goes back to hundresd of years B.C. simply it wasn't formalized into something called san shou, that happened in the 20th century. But still even to that day saprring was held with rules and as a sports.

[Shao Lin Long]

jujutsu exponents did not spar for the very reason SLL mentioned.

They didn't spar because sparring was a sport even if it cuold be used for real fighting. Martial arts were invented for the exponents to have some technicals advantages in a fight , after years and years of trial and error. Although one could fight as in sparring, that was not the idea of the martial arts, because if one fights as in sparring one does not have any technical advantages in a fight, it comes down to who is more condition, and if both are equally condition who is smarter.

[Sim Koning]

Yeah, what I meant in my post was kung fu Fighting(like the fighting applications of the forms.) A think what Sim Koning understand of kung fu fighting is ports fighting like san shou(which is called sparring not fighting). I understand this because now aday is hard to find school that this you how to fight like this,

San Shou is not just sport fighting, its a general term for free fighting as well as free form techniques or combinations. I know all the applications of my forms and I know how to use them. Just because I’m not poking my sparring partners eye out with a crane technique doesn’t mean I don’t know how to “kung fu fight”. The idea that sparring in something like san shou degrades the art is utter BS.

I think some kung fu stylists out there don’t like to admit that when it boils down to it kung fu doesn’t look much different than kickboxing. But the fact is, you have to keep your guard up like any boxer or kickboxer, you have to cover up and move more often than you block etc… The fact is your fist and palm is going to be your primary weapons in a fight against another fighter, its much harder than people think to poke a guy in the eyes when it’s already difficult to punch him in the face with a boxing glove on.

You CAN NOT learn how to fight without sparring, and you can not use lethal techniques when you spar, nor are you going to go at bare knuckle every other day because most of us have to get to work the next day. But, if you know the applications of the techniques in your forms, it takes little to convert a jab into a snake hand strike, or an uppercut into a palm strike.

If you spar with little or no contact, this will teach you nothing about real fighting, you are learning how to pretend to fight, not fight.

[Shao Lin Long]

Originally posted by Sim Koning


San Shou is not just sport fighting, its a general term for free fighting as well as free form techniques or combinations. I know all the applications of my forms and I know how to use them. Just because I’m not poking my sparring partners eye out with a crane technique doesn’t mean I don’t know how to “kung fu fight”. The idea that sparring in something like san shou degrades the art is utter BS.

I think some kung fu stylists out there don’t like to admit that when it boils down to it kung fu doesn’t look much different than kickboxing. But the fact is, you have to keep your guard up like any boxer or kickboxer, you have to cover up and move more often than you block etc… The fact is your fist and palm is going to be your primary weapons in a fight against another fighter, its much harder than people think to poke a guy in the eyes when it’s already difficult to punch him in the face with a boxing glove on.

You CAN NOT learn how to fight without sparring, and you can not use lethal techniques when you spar, nor are you going to go at bare knuckle every other day because most of us have to get to work the next day. But, if you know the applications of the techniques in your forms, it takes little to convert a jab into a snake hand strike, or an uppercut into a palm strike.

If you spar with little or no contact, this will teach you nothing about real fighting, you are learning how to pretend to fight, not fight.

I never , EVER said that san shou degrades the art in any way. And I know that one has to spar to know how to fight. Thats the next step in gungfu practice after learning the combat application, actually practicing it. First you must become familiar with the form and practice it fluidly, then separete de form into Attack-defense patterns, then after practicing thewm learning the combat application , and after that practicing with a parter the combat application , and then sparring.
Oh and kung Fu doesn't nessesaraly need to look like kickboxing. Only if you like to fight that way.

[Sim Koning]

I never , EVER said that san shou degrades the art in any way. And I know that one has to spar to know how to fight.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say

Oh and kung Fu doesn't nessesaraly need to look like kickboxing. Only if you like to fight that way.

Depends on the style, obviously Wing Chun is nothing like kickboxing, but styles like Choy Li Fut and Jow Gar (my style) are hard to distinguish from kickboxing at times if the guy isn't wearing a Chinese outfit.

[Dark Knight]

BTW, as everyone adds San Shou as an example that it works well in MMA, I see ads for San Shou seminars on MMA sites.

The MMA people see the value.

The boneheads dont know what they are talking about and know nothing about San Shou.

[Merryprankster]

It's pretty simple here folks:

You all follow a set of rules in the training hall too.

So this rules/no rules, training for the street stuff is BS.

EVERYBODY has a set of rules, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[Dark Knight]

As far as clawing and small joint manipulation, that can be done without causing serious injury, which leads me to wonder why its not allowed in the UFC, are they worried the crowd will construe it as cheating?

UFC has those rules for acouple reasons, including legal concerns, and to keep a fight entertaining. But the other organizations do not.

UFC is not the end all for NHB fighting look at the others to find more open rules.

[Meat Shake]

"sparring wasn't introduced until the advent of a sport art - judo."

Actually... from what I understand shuai chiao practitioners have been free wrestling since shuai chiao was shuai chiao.

Good luck to those of you competing in full contact fighting venues.
For those of you point sparring - go fight.