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Thread: Kung Fu and the UFC, which is more reality based?

  1. #286
    Originally posted by SimonM


    This was in practice, training, not a brawl on the street. The people who caused these injuries are all either friends or family.
    And that is exactly what makes your training less realistic. When you fight in an MMA event your oppoent hates your guts while you are in the ring with him. He is trying with all his might to knock you out, give you a concussion, break your limbs and choke you into oblivion. You are what is standing between him and moving up to his next, higher level payday and advancing his career as a fighter. Losing to you may cause him to not be able to support himself or his family. He will do everything in his power to maim you. He has been training for many years to get to this point and has been focusing for the last several months on nothing but just smashing your face in.

    The intensity level you have faced in training is nothing like that you will face in the cage, dude.
    Last edited by Knifefighter; 09-09-2004 at 11:57 AM.

  2. #287
    Originally posted by SimonM
    Oh and a question - you seem strongly opposed to studio training - are you suggesting that MMA does not have studios because I could swear that I have seen more than a couple of "black arts" and "modern self defense" schools around town and those certainly aren't traditional martial arts. Do all UFC practitioners practice in bars and backyards exclusively?
    Of course the fighters practice in gyms. They train hard, but the key is in the actual fighting. That is what brings you to the next level. It is participating in the event itself that is the key.

  3. #288
    Originally posted by SimonM
    Again, I have seen more than a couple of UFC matches. All the way back into the old days of Royce Gracie up to the present. And guess what: I have seen fighters better than their "Ultimate Fighters" in my home town.
    Seeing and experiencing are two different things. With only two years of experience, you are just a baby in the MA world.

  4. #289
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    Originally posted by Knifefighter
    Of course the fighters practice in gyms. They train hard, but the key is in the actual fighting. That is what brings you to the next level.
    Which I and most other truly dedicated practitioners of Tradtional Chinese Martial Arts do. As I mentioned about two posts ago. You know back the last time you said "it's cuz you guys never actually fight anybody else" and I said that I do regularly



    It is participating in the event itself that is the key.
    If by "the event" you mean fighting in general than yes. If you mean the UFC in specific, you run into that structured rules problem again. A real fight doesn't have any.
    Simon McNeil
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  5. #290
    Originally posted by SimonM
    A real fight doesn't have any.
    And how many real fights have you been in where your opponent was trying as hard as he could to hurt you as badly as he possibly could?

  6. #291
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    Originally posted by Knifefighter
    Seeing and experiencing are two different things. With only two years of experience, you are just a baby in the MA world.
    Yes, I have done Martial Arts for two years. Does that mean my opinion isn't as valuable as the next guys: no!

    This is the point where I am going to stop responding to your posts in this thread Knifefighter. We have now created a cyclical argument and in order to break the loop, you are now basically saying "you haven't been doing it long enough to count, you don't matter" if this childish and weak attack is the only argument you can muster, you are not worth my time.
    Simon McNeil
    ___________________________________________

    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  7. #292
    Originally posted by SimonM
    Yes, I have done Martial Arts for two years. Does that mean my opinion isn't as valuable as the next guys: no!
    Depends on who the next guy is. The Ph.d will have more authority than the second year undergraduate. And the Ph.d who has been working in the field for the last 10 years will have more credibility still.

    With only two years experience, you are like the second year undergraduate. Having never participated in an MMA event, you don't have much credence in terms of being able to know how effective that type of thing is.

  8. #293
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    Here's a point-

    On the one hand, the claims to KungFu being more 'reality based' argues that exposure to techniques which are illegal in UFC/NHB competition makes UFC/NHB competition training less 'reality based'. The implication is that since these techniques are illegal, then training in these techniques are either non-existant, briefly mentioned/studied or ignored, whereas they are 'practiced' with intent but with non-lethal, non-damaging force in KungFu.

    On the other hand, the claims to UFC/NHB competition training being more 'reality based' argue that because the competition itself is so fierce, in that the application during competition is with full intent and against not just an uncooperative opponent, but against one that is actively and aggressively fighting back, that the required training prior to competition and in between events thus more realisticly prepare a fighter than the typical KungFu trainee.

    Now to those of us who are interested in this discussion, but have little real experience in real world fights, I think the following questions relating from the above arguments would help in the development of this discussion-

    Do KungFu trainees ever get to really train and apply their techniques at FULL force and intent against an uncooperative and actively fighting back opponent?

    If the KungFu techniques in question are made 'legal' in UFC/NHB competition, would they really be used effectively, and what is the source supporting this?

  9. #294
    And here are another couple of questions for the "finger benders" out there who are claiming that breaking fingers somehow makes your training more realistic.
    - Do you train to grab fingers against an opponent who is actively resisting and trying to throw offensive techniques at the same time?
    - Once you get a finger hold, do you continue to manipulate it until your opponent submits?
    - Do you train counters to your various finger holds?
    - How often do people you train with dislocate or break their fingers?
    - How often does a person continue to train through a dislocated or broken finger?

  10. #295
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    Since we're on the fingerlocks - there are a LOT of people who can withstand the pain of having their digits broken. In the midst of manipulating digits to the breaking point, is the training designed so that there is enough awareness to be able to defend against or take advantage of continual attacks from the opponents other limbs and body parts (head, sholders, elbows, knees, hips, etc.)

    One thing that comes to mind is if someone is so intent on breaking my fingers and I'm intent on pounding on them but the pain is a bit much, let's say my opponent is skilled enough to continue a fingerlock through my natural tendency to twist and curl into a fist, my legs would go for the legs and my free hand would go for the testicles (assuming it's a man) with no hesitation on grabbing tightly and to rip out whatever I could.

    I would think that realisticly training for that scenario would be illegal in most countries, and as much as I enjoy training and fighting, I really wouldn't want to be involved in THAT realistic a session.

    So there's another point really.... how realistic do you really want to train? Since if you consider the intent and force involved, and the stresses of having an opponent that you know REALLY wants to tear you apart, it's rather dangerous to train in such ways. Which is why we end up with rules in NHB events. You don't want to die or lose body parts unnecessarily. Well, at least *I* wouldn't, tho' perhaps there's that truly hard core segment of the MA demographic that live this stuff in underground KungFu training.

  11. #296
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    I've never competed in UFC/NHB competitions, but in high school, i never missed a judo tourney. I understand both sides of the arguement of "toning down" your MA style. I hate having to care about my competitor, because that makes me hesitate to attack. In that hesitation, I could have lost my fight. I hate losing. I would rather just pretend my opponent is a slab of meat that I can destroy, but on the other hand, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. The rules are there to devise a "happy middle" so that people may spar and improve themselves and at the same time, are able to walk away from their learning experience without the aid of a walker. Just my thoughts though, feel free to pick them apart.
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  12. #297
    knifefighter has clinched the correct, taken it down and armbarred it with relative ease.
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