Kung Fu and the UFC, which is more reality based?

[Shao Lin Long]

First of all, UFC is not REAL fighting, its more of a sport. All traditional martial arts(or almost all) were developed for maiming or killing an opponent, so wether u like it or not the mayority of their techniques ARE prohibited in this type of competition.

If a person can't use the principles of their art without using "lethal" techniques, I question their training. A grappler can take you down, mount you and eye gouge you, or fish hook you from a rear mount, etc. but can also operate outside of that environment.

the majority of tma techniques are NOT limited, only a small handfull of them.

Their sole aim is to try to disable an opponent as fast as you can because they were developed in times were war was common and were society wasn't bound by any laws so you had to practice this techniques to defend your life even if it meant taking the one of another person.

1. any MA in a fight wants to take you out ASAP

2. most martial arts were NOT designed for use in wars and battles. they were village styles, family styles, etc. used for protection.


An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

strikes like the phoenix eye are not prohibited in MMA and you can do them with mma gloves on. the gloves allow for hand dexterity, and you can grab, lock, phoenix eye, etc.


I'm not saying that MMA don't work on the street(because they also really work on the streets) but only resalting that TMA fair better on the streets than in a ring or a competition.

nonsense.

Sorry to bother you about this old topic but, I strongly disagree with somethings here.

The first point: Maybe its true that alot aren't lethal techniques but alot of them that aren't lethal techniques are directed to tplaces wthat the UFC prohibits, like hits or grabs to the throat, the back of the neck. elbows to the ribs, grabs or hits or kicks to the groin,joint breaking grab and hits,etc.
Let me give you an example: in my kung fu school one of the first thing they teach you are 18 shaolin basic self defense techiniques:
1. a block followed by a punch to the chest
2.a block to a high a attck followed by a grab-and pull motion wher you are supposed to drill your elbow to the persons' ribs while at the same time pullin his arm to the opposite direction.
3.a simultaneoushigh block and counter with a punch to the nose
4. a techniqeu where you lean back to let a kick pass and the strike with a hammer fist o the opponents groin.
5.A feint punch followed by a counter to the block and the a punch to the ribs.
6. a a counter to a punch thrown from behind and the followed by a swinging punch to the back of the neck.
7. An intercepting grab to an opponents oncoming swinginpunch and simutaneously striking the opponents ribs with the elbow.
8. A simultaneous double block one from a punch coming from
the top and an other for a kick to the gorin the... the second block is also intende to breack the opponents ankle since its a knife hand strike also(not just a block).
9.A block to an incoming double grab to the neck folllowed by a hooking of his ankle with yours and then an upward "push" with your palms to his hips.
10. hook block to a straight punched followed by a sweep.
11. A swingingblock to a low kick followed by a sweep to the ankle(using the momentum of the swingingblock.
12. an instep kick to the gorin leaning back to avoid getting hit by a punch.
13. a feint kick to the groins followed by a kick to the head.
14. a eagle claw block from a straight punch simultaneously grabbing te opponent by the troat with another eagle claw.
15. a grabbing block to apunch followed by a break of the arm
16.A counter to a grab of the wrist by trapping the opponents wrist and twisting.
17. A counter to a garb of the wrist by traping the opponents wrist and breaking hi s elbow with your elbow
18. counter to a grab of the shoulder by twisting the opponents wrist breaking the elbo with your elbow the punching the opponents face.

Now if you see not many of this basic techniques are legal in the UFC.

2nd point:
Maybe some of the arts where created by Families, like the southern styles but, just take Eagle Claw for example: Yue Fei invented that style along with Hsing I to train his troops to fight aginst the invasion from the north. The same thing with okinawan karate: the fisherman developed it because the invaders took away their weapons and eachh day the need of unarmed fighting skill bacame more nesesary.

3rd point:
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops, they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

Just re read this without paying attention to what I said about the hand forms in the gloves.

4th point

You just said nonsense . Please explain your points so I can understand better what you think...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shao Lin Long
Sorry to bother you about this old topic but, I strongly disagree with somethings here.

no prob... I actually forgot about this thread, which is what took me so long to reply.

The first point: Maybe its true that alot aren't lethal techniques but alot of them that aren't lethal techniques are directed to tplaces wthat the UFC prohibits, like hits or grabs to the throat, the back of the neck. elbows to the ribs, grabs or hits or kicks to the groin,joint breaking grab and hits,etc.

Actually, elbows to the ribs are allowed. so are joint breaks - after all, a submission is a choke, joint lock, etc. if they don't tap before the joint is broken, that is their fault. Pride has very few restrictions. They are listed below:

# Biting
# Eye thumbing and eye gouging
# Head butting
# Attacking the groin
# Pulling Hair
# Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
# Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
# Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
# Escaping to the outside of the ring
# Throwing the opponent outside the ring
# Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.


Let me give you an example: in my kung fu school one of the first thing they teach you are 18 shaolin basic self defense techiniques:
1. a block followed by a punch to the chest
2.a block to a high a attck followed by a grab-and pull motion wher you are supposed to drill your elbow to the persons' ribs while at the same time pullin his arm to the opposite direction.
3.a simultaneoushigh block and counter with a punch to the nose
4. a techniqeu where you lean back to let a kick pass and the strike with a hammer fist o the opponents groin.
5.A feint punch followed by a counter to the block and the a punch to the ribs.
6. a a counter to a punch thrown from behind and the followed by a swinging punch to the back of the neck.
7. An intercepting grab to an opponents oncoming swinginpunch and simutaneously striking the opponents ribs with the elbow.
8. A simultaneous double block one from a punch coming from
the top and an other for a kick to the gorin the... the second block is also intende to breack the opponents ankle since its a knife hand strike also(not just a block).
9.A block to an incoming double grab to the neck folllowed by a hooking of his ankle with yours and then an upward "push" with your palms to his hips.
10. hook block to a straight punched followed by a sweep.
11. A swingingblock to a low kick followed by a sweep to the ankle(using the momentum of the swingingblock.
12. an instep kick to the gorin leaning back to avoid getting hit by a punch.
13. a feint kick to the groins followed by a kick to the head.
14. a eagle claw block from a straight punch simultaneously grabbing te opponent by the troat with another eagle claw.
15. a grabbing block to apunch followed by a break of the arm
16.A counter to a grab of the wrist by trapping the opponents wrist and twisting.
17. A counter to a garb of the wrist by traping the opponents wrist and breaking hi s elbow with your elbow
18. counter to a grab of the shoulder by twisting the opponents wrist breaking the elbo with your elbow the punching the opponents face.

Now if you see not many of this basic techniques are legal in the UFC.

out of all of the stuff you listed, ONLY TWO of them aren't allowed in pride.

2nd point:
Maybe some of the arts where created by Families, like the southern styles but, just take Eagle Claw for example: Yue Fei invented that style along with Hsing I to train his troops to fight aginst the invasion from the north. The same thing with okinawan karate: the fisherman developed it because the invaders took away their weapons and eachh day the need of unarmed fighting skill bacame more nesesary.

it's still a family style, not a battlefield oriented style, so that's irrelevant. Battlefield styles were generally weapons oriented, for obvious reasons. Okinawan karate was a "peasant style" they were mainly farmers and fisherman, and thus used farm tools as weapons. Awesome stuff, but not a battlefield art.

3rd point:
An other point,in traditional martial arts(at least kung fu) they don't teach you to trade blows with ones opponents until one drops

If you think sport fighting teaches this, you should actually go check out a school...

they teach you to block and dodge until you see an opening, then hit or grab or pull one of the opponents vital points to take him down

that's really no different than what we do.

so in matches of boxing and kickboxing alike they are also limited, not only because alot of the techniques are prohinited because they may MAIM or KILL, but because they also were gloves and this limits the practitioner not only to normal punches(no other punches like phoenix eye, no other hand attack like the palm, and no grabs and hold) but it also reduces the ability to knockdown an opponent with little blows to weak parts(as trained in traditional martial arts) because the gloves reduce the impact. So traditional martial arts may not do well in those competition but in real fighting, where everything counts, Traditional martial arts are very effective.

compete in MMA where open fingered gloves are used. you will then be able to do everything you mentioned above, as it is all legal.

4th point

You just said nonsense . Please explain your points so I can understand better what you think...

How is it better suited for the street? What special training is done that makes it more effective for the street than a ring?

[reemul]

I didn't even get through all the post before having to respond to the idiocy.

First the UFC is an event not a MA. All those who compete know there are rules (no matter what the style) and the participants train with that in mind. That fact that the UFC has rules implies that it is not in fact "real."

Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.

Comments on techniques

As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).

Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.

Grabbing the windpipe is a fight stopper. Done it.

Summary

Most fights have more to do with ego than with self preservation. Understanding this we can establish that in most fights the participants lack the mindset to actively persue maiming or killing their opponent. It is a trait of being civilized. In the UFC it is possible for someone to be killed, It is also plausible that it may be a combatants mindset to do so (no repercussions, sh!t happens at fighting events) . That is why the rules are there.
If these techniques didn't work why would they be forbidden.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by reemul
I didn't even get through all the post before having to respond to the idiocy.

First the UFC is an event not a MA. All those who compete know there are rules (no matter what the style) and the participants train with that in mind. That fact that the UFC has rules implies that it is not in fact "real."

The fact that you felt the need to state that says that you need to reat the thread before responding.

Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.

that's incorrect. the one training harder and more efficiently will have the upper hand in either scenario, regardless of style.


As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution. If an individual is capable of poking a hole through a quarter inch piece of wood, that is more than enough to take out an eye (prividing you hit your target).

Bingo - PROVIDING YOU HIT YOUR TARGET. Since you haven't read the thread, and since you haven't been around in a while, you probably missed it. The biggest argument most of us have against these techniques is probability of contact - when someone has their chin tucked, hands up, head movement, etc, the throat isn't an easy target. Same for the eyes.

Also with regard to tiger claws this is not simply technique, it is the condition of hands to where they become thick and caloused to the point where finger tips can rip flesh. The more you bleed the quicker your energy will disipate in a lengthy engagement.
I play guitar and my calouses are nowhere near that which can be achieved through TG claw conditioning and I have cut myself before. So this is fact not theory.

I don't disagree with that.

Grabbing the windpipe is a fight stopper. Done it.

see your above statement about hitting the target.

That is why the rules are there.
If these techniques didn't work why would they be forbidden.

Once again, the argument isn't that they don't work. sure getting hit in the throat hurts. so does getting an eye poked out. but how likely is it? since it can possibly happen, they rule against it. if I attempt 10 eye gouges and one of them is successful, you may lose an eye. they are cutting off that possibility by not letting you attempt it.

[reemul]

UFC related martial arts are being sold as being more realistic and effective than the traditional arts such as karate and kung fu. Many people are starting to look at traditional styles as being antiquated and as something that does not work in real life. The fact that very few if any kung fu stylists compete in the UFC does not help the situation. Before I continue, let’s look at the rules.

The biggest argument most of us have against these techniques is probability of contact - when someone has their chin tucked, hands up, head movement, etc, the throat isn't an easy target. Same for the eyes.

What is so improbable about these techniques? If your a good fighter, just as in boxing, you are able to develop strategies to set your opponent up. It still just comes down to who is better, not the probability of which techniques will land.

Style aside, if you have two fighters and one traines and conditions himself for the UFC and the other Traines for non-sport combativeness, in the ring of the UFC the one who trained for the UFC would have an advantage. On the street the non-sport combatant would have an advantage.

that's incorrect. the one training harder and more efficiently will have the upper hand in either scenario, regardless of style.

You missed the point, given they train equally as hard each has an advantage over the other in there own environement.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


As far as eye gouges and tiger claws being impractical theory, you have never fought someone who has properly trained and conditioned for proper execution.

So, just how many people have you blinded or killed so far?

[reemul]

Maybe I should ask you, how many people capable and willing to blind maim or kill you have you fought.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
Maybe I should ask you, ...

Maybe you should answer my question.

[reemul]

...but its a pointless question and either way doesn't really lend any usefulness to the debate.

Your logic is akin to the belief that a knife cant cut you although many people have been cut by knives and it is a fact that knives can cut you.

Your disbelief in the usefulness of techniques is based on your apparent limited exposure (not an insult). No one in the forums is an expert on all the styles of MA and their effectivness, we can only comment on what we know in relation to what we observe and discuss.

I know that a knife will cut you.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
...but its a pointless question

So, the answer you are avoiding is "zero". Thank you.

[reemul]

... now what was the point to your question?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul
... now what was the point to your question?

Just so we are on the same page, you admit that the number is zero?

[Merryprankster]

HIS point is the same point I made ages ago:

We ALL follow a set of rules in our training or competitions for safety reasons.

YOU follow rules in the kwoon. THEY follow rules in the ring.

So arguing that "your techniques are not allowed" is a bull**** comment.

YOUR techniques aren't even allowed in YOUR training! It's only a simulation!

Just as the UFC is a simulation of personal combat with a different set of rules.

All of this rules crap is a red herring. If you want to fight in the ring, fight. If you don't, don't. But don't puss out with a bull**** excuse about "rules," cause everybody's got em.

[reemul]

Well, then we must be having two different conversations.

I had already stated that UFC was not real and neither are most fights on the street. They have more to do with ego rather than self preservation. The UFC has rules so people don't get killed. Many of your Traditional styles do practice alot if not all the techniques that are banned. But thats not to say a traditional stylist could not do well in the event as long as they trained according to the rules. I don't recommend Traditional training if you plan to go into the UFC because rules basically define how you play the "game". But none of this speaks to whether the banned techniques are effective.

My argument was aimed at the NHB inspired comment that techniques of traditional styles are improbable or simply do not work. I also pointed out that rare is the chance that someone with that level of training and skill will be involved in a street fight.

My argument has never been about justifying why Traditional MA don't participate that often in UFC. Personally I think it has something to do with a different mindset. Most of the UFC fighters don't strike me as MA masters, they all seem to have something to prove. Again its all about ego.

So what ever the point was, I fail to see the relevance.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by reemul


My argument was aimed at the NHB inspired comment that techniques of traditional styles are improbable or simply do not work.

Just because they are never actually used? Go figure!