Emei/Omei Region

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie
[BThe way we do it is obvious and needs to be, so if others did it, it would also be obvious. It's like the 1-fist-distance YJKYM. Other's might KY, but it's pretty easy to see if they're not doing it it one-fist, 'specially if you could drive an Austin... er BMW Mini twixt their legs. [/B]

Rene, the definition of KY may vary among lineages, some might say it protects the vital part, some say it is related to legs Yang meridians, some say KY is like two long chop sticks extending from your knees; holding a small target in front of you. There may be others, but just to list a few that I know of.....

[reneritchie]

Yup, that's exactly what I meant.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Rene,


We also do everything with twisting power. I've not seen this in other branches, however (I don't remember if Koo Lo does this?)


Yes! It all starts with a twist of the waist/spine and shoots out! The body/limbs twist. I have watched the way Sum sifu coordinates his actions and its ultra similar!


Gotta run!

[reneritchie]

You are always running. You must have amazing cardio!

[Jim Roselando]

RR,


Just call me the Marathon Man! hehehe

Cardio! Now thats something I definetly could use!


Gotta walk,

[Jim Roselando]

Yylee,


Jim, IMO if Snake is the body, then it should apply to both Bong and Biu Jee, sound logical? So the energy body is not restricted by any one technique.

The engine powers the tools. Nothing is restricted by one technique!

And, where can you find snake/worm like gradual movements in your WC training?

The way the body moves!


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


This topic will be an off-shoot of a discussion regarding Snake Body going on in the Weng Chun Sup Yat thread!


So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun.

I started to look into different art that show roots in that region ... We can use a few systems or methods as examples;


Ba Gwa: This art often claims roots in Emei region and various lineages state different descriptions regarding the body/engine! You can hear the body/engine often described as Snake Body by Park Bok Nam and other groups. You can hear the body/engine descrbed to as Swimming Body by the Gao people. You can hear the body/engine described to as Swimming Dragon by other groups! All coming from Emei!


Zhuang: Yee Chuan grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai ( while not emei but a good connection) states: The body is like a swimming Dragon and if Miao Shun own knowledge was Emei Zhuang then thats a good sign!


Yuen Kay San lineage: Although not claiming to be an Emei based art we can see in some writing that they also state; Swimming Dragon is memory serves me correctly and Rene can probally help me out if I am wrong!
...

Recently I recieved some footage of Fukien Crane and while the Ging was different from Wing Chun the hand skills were remarkable similar to Leung Jan's teaching. I sent this footage to Hendrik and he was the one who told me .....

So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? ....
[/QUOTE]

Hello Jim, since you asked here are a few thoughts ....

To paraphrase the above,

1. You believe the origin of wing chun comes from Emei and Fujian White Crane because you watched some videos and Hedrick "told you" the name of a form.

To support your the Emei connection you quote Bagua kung fu followed by two sources with no connection to Emei. Yi Chuan Grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (who you admit "while not emei" but you still consider him a connection???) and YKSWCK which you correctly state "Although not claiming to be an Emei based art.... "

In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!

So tell us again how does this support an Emei connection to Wing Chun?

With loose connections like the ones above are you seriously confused as to why there are "some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun." Instead of why don't they it should be why would they?

As for the White Crane aspect that's for another post.

-David

[yylee]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

The way the body moves!

that's it? no "little" details?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello David!


Good to speak with you!


Hello Jim, since you asked here are a few thoughts ....

Cool!

To paraphrase the above,

1. You believe the origin of wing chun comes from Emei and Fujian White Crane because you watched some videos and Hedrick "told you" the name of a form.

No! Thats what you are saying! I state a lot of reasons for believing in that theory and one was because of the research into Fukien arts. Not only did I look into Jumping/Feeding/Eating and other versions of which I posted foto's long ago on this site but also can show video footage as to the scary (and I mean scary) similarities in Hand skills to WCK with the latest footage. I have yet to ser another art as similar to WCK as that! So, it has nothing to do with a name of a form! Sorry.

To support your the Emei connection you quote Bagua kung fu followed by two sources with no connection to Emei.

I am sorry my friend but you must not be understanding what you are reading! I stated that when I started to look into that possible theory I investigated Emei region arts and one of which was Ba Gwa. From there I looked into and spoke with numerous lineage to find out that they claim Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. All of which come from Emei!

Yi Chuan Grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (who you admit "while not emei" but you still consider him a connection???)

Yes I do! Why? Because Wang Xiang Zhai's art is a Zhuang based! With that in mind one can see if Miao Shun's art was Emei Sup Yee "Zhuang" then the two would indeed share similarities as all Zhuang based arts do.

and YKSWCK which you correctly state "Although not claiming to be an Emei based art.... "

YKS's historical records state; WCK was founded by Miao Shun who combined his own knowledge with Ng Mui's art. Same history as Yik Kam/Hendrik lineage!

In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!

Thats true! So does Koo Lo WCK yet one cannot deny the fact that YKS's own history goes back to """"Miao Shun combining his own knowledge with Ng Miu's art""""! So, while they say Shaolin we can easily see that the history supports a more realistic evoltuion.

So tell us again how does this support an Emei connection to Wing Chun?

I already did! Hopefull the above info. helps you see that but if it doesn't then there is nothign I can do about that.

With loose connections like the ones above are you seriously confused as to why there are "some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun." Instead of why don't they it should be why would they?

Read above.

As for the White Crane aspect that's for another post.

Start a new thread!


Thanks for the chat!


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando


No! Thats what you are saying! I state a lot of reasons for believing in that theory and one was because of the research into Fukien arts. Not only did I look into Jumping/Feeding/Eating and other versions of which I posted foto's long ago on this site but also can show video footage as to the scary (and I mean scary) similarities in Hand skills to WCK with the latest footage. I have yet to ser another art as similar to WCK as that! So, it has nothing to do with a name of a form! Sorry.

Hello Jim, I can see where your confusion is coming from. You say that videos and pictures show hand techniques similar to Wing Chun so that must mean there is a relationship. If you're looking at form that assumption is easy to make. But you yourself stated that Fujian White Crane is based on concepts not technique. Now you say the techniques (you saw on the video)
point to a connection ?? You simply can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I am sorry my friend but you must not be understanding what you are reading! I stated that when I started to look into that possible theory I investigated Emei region arts and one of which was Ba Gwa. From there I looked into and spoke with numerous lineage to find out that they claim Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. All of which come from Emei!

Actually my friend, I am sorry to say but, it may be that you don't understand what you are writing. Terms like "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are common terms in chinese kung fu. Without training the system many false assumptions arise, such as yours. This is due to the fact that you actually posses no first hand knowledge or experience regarding the inherent relationship between the terms and the physical activity they pertain to. (thats how kuen kuits work.) Second, those terms without that experience are empty!!! Those terms are soley form!!! They aid and are an intregral part in the transmition of each individual system they are contained in/originated from. In short "dragon body" means something entirely different to a Ba Gwa Zhang practitioner than it does a practitioner of Lung Ying Kuen.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Yi Chuan Grandmaster Wang Xiang Zhai (who you admit "while not emei" but you still consider him a connection???)

Yes I do! Why? Because Wang Xiang Zhai's art is a Zhuang based! With that in mind one can see if Miao Shun's art was Emei Sup Yee "Zhuang" then the two would indeed share similarities as all Zhuang based arts do.

Are you serious???? Don't you see the false logic of your hypothesis??? To start with as you state Yi Chuan of Wang Xiang Zhai is however,Miao Shun's art cannot be verified for he part of fokelore and myth.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

and YKSWCK which you correctly state "Although not claiming to be an Emei based art.... "

YKS's historical records state; WCK was founded by Miao Shun who combined his own knowledge with Ng Mui's art. Same history as Yik Kam/Hendrik lineage!

But only Hendrick claims Miao shun's art to be Emei. Unless this is the legacy for Cho Ga Wing Chun and all Yik Kam White Crane Wing Chun players.

I know from Hendrick's Sihing, Wong sifu, their sifu Cho Hung Choi claims Wing Chun to be Shaolin. He states that the Fa Kuen set taught in Cho Ga WC is a Wing Chun set from Shaolin.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!

Thats true! So does Koo Lo WCK yet one cannot deny the fact that YKS's own history goes back to """"Miao Shun combining his own knowledge with Ng Miu's art""""! So, while they say Shaolin we can easily see that the history supports a more realistic evoltuion.

So while all the Wing Chun folklore points to Shaolin, 99.9% of Wing Chun families today claim Shaolin roots, Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai/ Dai Fa Min Gam/ Fung Sui Ching etc ... all claim Shaolin and never mention Wing Chun originating with Fujian White Crane or Zhuang - you, Jim Roselando somehow made a connection none of the Ancestors did? Hmmmm ......

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

So tell us again how does this support an Emei connection to Wing Chun?

I already did! Hopefull the above info. helps you see that but if it doesn't then there is nothign I can do about that.

No you haven't Jim. You have thrown a lot of words around but not shown how your examples support an Emei connection to Wing Chun. And you better do something about it because it is your theory.


-David

[t_niehoff]

I've come out of my self-imposed, KFO exile to interject a few things on this (reoccuring) topic.

Firstly, White Crane Kuen claims Shaolin origins. So, if WCK has its roots in White Crane as some believe then those roots extend back to Shaolin. (Interestingly, many WCK origin-stories are very similar to White Crane's and its offshoots' origin stories: from Shaolin, a woman learning the art, etc.).

Secondly, there are many variables to be considered in any inquiry as to whether different kuen faats are related, including movement characteristics, terminology, conceptual underpinnings, timelines, locations, oral traditions, etc. With regard to movement characteristics, if one hasn't seen the various white crane lineages or ermei 12 jong so as to permit them to make a comparison, any comments or conclusions would simply be uninformed. This is not to suggest that we should not draw our own conclusions based on information available to us, but we should keep in mind that any hypothesis, including those we hold dear, is tentative. And when we do draw conclusions, it is helpful to keep in mind that they are our conclusions, not "the truth" however inescapable we believe that conclusion is.

FWIW, many knowledgeable White Crane practitioners consider WCK to be a offshoot of their art (see Yang, Jwing-Ming's compilation book "Shaolin White Crane" as an example). Obviously this isn't definitive but does suggest further inquiry may be warranted.

Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth.

Fourthly, one factor to always consider in weighing any person's position is their investment in that position, i.e., what is at stake for them. And I don't just mean financially.

Fifthly, Joseph Campbell (author of "The Power of Myth", etc.) has warned us of "the danger in taking our metaphors literally." If you don't know what he (or I) am talking about, I suggest it may be worthwhile for you to read Campbell.

Regards,

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

David,


I am not going to reply to your full post as it reminds me of the past discussions we had that will end up going no place. I will address a couple of points. JR

But you yourself stated that Fujian White Crane is based on concepts not technique.

No! Thats what you stated! I told you that White Crane is based on Ging patterns and even Yang Jwing Ming (who has numerous years and research into White Crane) state this!! Terence gave you a good book to buy! Shaolin White Crane by YJM! Perhaps thats the Shaolin ancestor roots you search for! JR

I am sorry to say but, it may be that you don't understand what you are writing. Terms like "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are common terms in chinese kung fu. Without training the system many false assumptions arise, such as yours. This is due to the fact that you actually posses no first hand knowledge or experience regarding the inherent relationship between the terms and the physical activity they pertain to.

I guess I will have to let my Gao and other Ba Gwa friends know that what they told me I could not understand. Thanks for helping me out! hehe JR

Are you serious???? Don't you see the false logic of your hypothesis??? To start with as you state Yi Chuan of Wang Xiang Zhai is however,Miao Shun's art cannot be verified for he part of fokelore and myth.

Zhuang based arts are Zhuang based arts. All are similar. WCK SLT stands in a form of Zhuang and the Kuit point to it. Like it or not its ok with me. JR

So while all the Wing Chun folklore points to Shaolin, 99.9% of Wing Chun families today claim Shaolin roots, Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai/ Dai Fa Min Gam/ Fung Sui Ching etc ... all claim Shaolin and never mention Wing Chun originating with Fujian White Crane or Zhuang - you, Jim Roselando somehow made a connection none of the Ancestors did? Hmmmm ......


I made no connection but like to think about what everyone state as their evidience and yes all Wing Chun (well almost all known lineage) claim to come from Shaolin. Or shall we say almost all Kung Fu claims that! What do they also claim? Crane and Snake but I guess that doesn't mean anything. JR

You have thrown a lot of words around but not shown how your examples support an Emei connection to Wing Chun. And you better do something about it because it is your theory.

Belive what you want amigo! If you feel that arts can just Poof and majically appear then that is fine. If you feel that (as you said many times); Only the dead ancestors know! Then thats cool to.

Nice speaking with you!


Regards,

[PaulH]

I found this true so far. I crane my neck for a closer look at some interesting posts and snake myself silently away when the grass is burning! =)

[yuanfen]

Hey Paul H- you learn a lot that way!

Joy

[PaulH]

You know me, Joy! =)