Emei/Omei Region

[yuanfen]

Hey Paul H- you learn a lot that way!

Joy

[reneritchie]

"In addition to Yuan Kay San, his Sihing doesn't claim any connection to Emei. In fact, the Wing Chun system of his Sihing claims Shaolin roots!!!"

That site has little if nothing to do with Yuen Chai-Wan's history. However, in legends, the Yuen family, like much of WCK, has been linked back to 'Buddhist Nun Ng Mui", whom is most often said to have been a Shaolin Nun. But that shouldn't be confused with history.

There are some Chinese writings which link WCK or parts thereof back to Emei. One claimed the Gulao 3.5 pole came from Emei. Another claimed breathing work in WCK came from Emei.

Most simply stuck with the legends or didn't care.

In the end, high level TCMA tend towards the similar, and based on an individuals own experience, they can "see" what similarities they choose to see. Some swear Fujian White Crane is exactly the same. Some Hakka fist. Some Hung Ga. Some other stuff. It's all eye of the beholder.

"He states that the Fa Kuen set taught in Cho Ga WC is a Wing Chun set from Shaolin."

Wong has an interesting take on WCK. He's said a lot of very strange things (like Yip Kin being the son of Yip Man), and otherwise much factually incorrect info on Cho and WCK in general. Fa Kuen looked to me like village boxing, the type of thing you see put together from a mish-mash of other stuff (no offense Hendrik) spread across the South.

And Cho does have 3 forms, just like the rest of WCK, they just don't bother to take a rest in between them like most of us (or was that a troll? If so, ignore the response

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie

"He states that the Fa Kuen set taught in Cho Ga WC is a Wing Chun set from Shaolin."

Wong has an interesting take on WCK. He's said a lot of very strange things (like Yip Kin being the son of Yip Man), and otherwise much factually incorrect info on Cho and WCK in general. Fa Kuen looked to me like village boxing, the type of thing you see put together from a mish-mash of other stuff (no offense Hendrik) spread across the South.

And Cho does have 3 forms, just like the rest of WCK, they just don't bother to take a rest in between them like most of us (or was that a troll? If so, ignore the response

Rene,

Thanks. I agree with you.


Fa Kuen is an application of SLT with a certain hand technics.
IT has nothing to do with Wong Romance of Shao Lin.


As for the name Fa Kuen. There is a meaning why it is called Fa. I am not going to release it here. Since it is Cho family's internal.


however, what I can said is, as story or Legend had it that the Name Fa link to a person in Chinese history.....who live in the same time with Lu Sei-Niong the woman hero who assasin the Young Zhen emperor, and it has a special meaning which makes it the characteristics of the set.


I am in Taiwan in the mean time. Going out meeting Some White Crane friends.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I've come out of my self-imposed, KFO exile to interject a few things on this (reoccuring) topic.

Firstly, White Crane Kuen claims Shaolin origins. So, if WCK has its roots in White Crane as some believe then those roots extend back to Shaolin. (Interestingly, many WCK origin-stories are very similar to White Crane's and its offshoots' origin stories: from Shaolin, a woman learning the art, etc.).

Great but that statement has no bearing on my discussion with Jim. Jim saw some videos and through the similarity of hand techniques he came to the conclusion Wing Chun is a derivitive of White Crane. My point is was and will continue to be form is empty.

For example: Jim says "... can show video footage as to the scary (and I mean scary) similarities in Hand skills to WCK with the latest footage. I have yet to see another art as similar to WCK as that" Does that mean when he sees a Lau Ga sets he will then say Lau Ga is connected to Wing Chun?? This can go on and on ....

Originally posted by t_niehoff

FWIW, many knowledgeable White Crane practitioners consider WCK to be a offshoot of their art (see Yang, Jwing-Ming's compilation book "Shaolin White Crane" as an example). Obviously this isn't definitive but does suggest further inquiry may be warranted.

One does not qualify as many. Where much of the confusion arises from is the name given to the family White Crane gung fu sysytem of the Fong clan. They are from Yong Chun(Wing Chun) County. Hence, they call their system White Crane Wing Chun. Others within the White Crane community may refer to it as Fong's Wing Chun meaning White Crane from the Fong family of Wing Chun County.

Originally posted by t_niehoff

Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth.

Is this a disclaimer for or precursor to the inevitible (sp??) classic Terrence behavior??

Originally posted by t_niehoff

Fifthly, Joseph Campbell (author of "The Power of Myth", etc.) has warned us of "the danger in taking our metaphors literally." If you don't know what he (or I) am talking about, I suggest it may be worthwhile for you to read Campbell.

Regards,

Terence

For you to quote The Power of Myth in this thread is apropo. That piece of literary penmanship had tons to do with faith, religion, interspection, self-examination, etc .... and nothing to do with martial arts. One more example of how only seeing form can lead to many false assumptions.

If you have no knowledge of who or what has been read, studied or analyzed by whom, I suggest you not be so quick to offer opinions which may be interpreted as condescending in nature.

-David

[TenTigers]

Hi Rene,
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but you bring up a point that I'd like to pursue. You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?
-Rik

[yuanfen]

Ten Tigers:And which if any systems still practice it like this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I want to- I do.

joy c

[yuanfen]

Ten Tigers:And which if any systems still practice it like this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I want to- I do.

joy c

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I am not going to reply to your full post as it reminds me of the past discussions we had that will end up going no place. I will address a couple of points. JR

But you yourself stated that Fujian White Crane is based on concepts not technique.

No! Thats what you stated! I told you that White Crane is based on Ging patterns and even Yang Jwing Ming (who has numerous years and research into White Crane) state this!! Terence gave you a good book to buy! Shaolin White Crane by YJM! Perhaps thats the Shaolin ancestor roots you search for! JR

Um Jim, by definition "Ging" is a concept. To be more specific "ging patterns" are high-concepts.

I digress, let's walk the string and not sidetrack the discussion. You said since the hand patterns look like Wing Chun hands there must be a connection. I say a techinque is empty. No connection can be made from form alone!!

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I am sorry to say but, it may be that you don't understand what you are writing. Terms like "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are common terms in chinese kung fu. Without training the system many false assumptions arise, such as yours. This is due to the fact that you actually posses no first hand knowledge or experience regarding the inherent relationship between the terms and the physical activity they pertain to.

I guess I will have to let my Gao and other Ba Gwa friends know that what they told me I could not understand. Thanks for helping me out! hehe JR

Again context Jim. You said terms like [paraphrased .... "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are found in Zhuang systems and somewhere YKSWC mentioned something about dragons (or something similar) so there is a connection.]

I am simply pointing out those terms are common However,they hold intrinsic and specific meaning when applied to and taught within individual systems. In short, the term "dragon body" and the like are common terms. Easily those terms can hold entirely different meanings to a Ba Gwa Zhang practitioner than it does a practitioner of Lung Ying Kuen.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Are you serious???? Don't you see the false logic of your hypothesis??? To start with as you state Yi Chuan of Wang Xiang Zhai is however,Miao Shun's art cannot be verified for he part of fokelore and myth.

Zhuang based arts are Zhuang based arts. All are similar. WCK SLT stands in a form of Zhuang and the Kuit point to it. Like it or not its ok with me. JR

What I like has nothing to do with this discussion. You offered very loose points as a connection between Wing Chun and Emei. Then asked for thoughts. Just because those loose points don't stand up under analysis no need to become dimissive.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

I made no connection but like to think about what everyone state as their evidience and yes all Wing Chun (well almost all known lineage) claim to come from Shaolin. Or shall we say almost all Kung Fu claims that! What do they also claim? Crane and Snake but I guess that doesn't mean anything. JR

Um Jim this is from your first post ... "So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun.This info. is not designed to try and persuade anyone but give a bit of info. I found when I started to look into that theory and why I think its more likely!"

and this ....

"I started to look into different art that show roots in that region. After that I looked into their engine/details. We can use a few systems or methods as examples; ..... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang ... Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Belive what you want amigo! If you feel that arts can just Poof and majically appear then that is fine. If you feel that (as you said many times); Only the dead ancestors know! Then thats cool to.

Nice speaking with you!


Regards,

Believe what I want ??? You offered points and I offered counter-points providing links when possible as independent information to illustrate said counter-points.

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

Nice speaking with you as well

-David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hi Rene,
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but you bring up a point that I'd like to pursue. You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?
-Rik

RIk,

I have heard the same story.

Probably, only those in the Red Boat can answer if that story is true. or what is it or what happen......

And we all belongs to the second millenium...... so we might not want to ask the question which has answer only at 1850....for it might not provide a solution but open up more questions...


let this story gone with the wind.... is the best for this story I think. we all cant go back to 1850 we only can move forward.


or those who believe they inherit the oldest and original WCK from shao lin want to explain why there is a story about there is only one set in the Red boat?

just some thought.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phenis



RIk,

I have heard the same story....

.... let this story gone with the wind.... is the best for this story I think.

...or those who inherit WCK from shaolin want to explain why there is a story about there is only one set in the Red boat?

just some thought.

Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt. Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. I'm especially surprised you aren't writing songs about how Yik Gam has original slt from Emei and White Crane !!! Within your own Cho Ga WC family there is a question if Yik Gam even lived on the boats or lived in a port city and learned what Wing Chun he could when the Red Boat Troupe came to perform.

Rik, SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity. Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ. Those three ancestors were the senior members of the troupe.

An interesting side note, Leung Jan (who learned from Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai) and Fung Sui Ching (who learned from Dai Fa Min Gam) both have at least two lineages as their legacy to Wing Chun. Both have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ in one system but not the other.

Leung Jan is most famously associated with Yip Man family Wing Chun and Gulo Villiage Wing Chun.

Fung Siu Ching is most famously associated with Yuan Kay San Wing Chun and Jee Sim Weng Chun.

Just some thoughts

-David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Phenis



RIk,

I have heard the same story....

.... let this story gone with the wind.... is the best for this story I think.

...or those who inherit WCK from shaolin want to explain why there is a story about there is only one set in the Red boat?

just some thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt. Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. I'm especially surprised you aren't writing songs about how Yik Gam has original slt from Emei and White Crane !!! Within your own Cho Ga WC family there is a question if Yik Gam even lived on the boats or lived in a port city and learned what Wing Chun he could when the Red Boat Troupe came to perform.

Rik, SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity. Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ. Those three ancestors were the senior members of the troupe.

An interesting side note, Leung Jan (who learned from Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai) and Fung Sui Ching (who learned from Dai Fa Min Gam) both have at least two lineages as their legacy to Wing Chun. Both have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ in one system but not the other.

Leung Jan is most famously associated with Yip Man family Wing Chun and Gulo Villiage Wing Chun.

Fung Siu Ching is most famously associated with Yuan Kay San Wing Chun and Jee Sim Weng Chun.

Just some thoughts

-David

when people has doubt about themself and have fear that they stand on unsolid ground, they behave in a strange way and posting strange post.

That is the time to give them compassionate and understanding.

[yylee]

For our three forms, I think CK and BJ would not work without SNT foundation. So are they just three different stages of WC training? or seperate exercises that are unique their own ways? that is probably for another thread.

As for the Ermei-WC connection, I agreed with Terence's (wah, what a surprise from an exile member!) comments on "movement characteristics, terminology, and conceptual underpinnings". If we cannot identify key points that link the two together, we don't have a case to study. Need lots of "little" details and specifics.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee

As for the Ermei-WC connection, I agreed with Terence's (wah, what a surprise from an exile member!) comments on "movement characteristics, terminology, and conceptual underpinnings". If we cannot identify key points that link the two together, we don't have a case to study. Need lots of "little" details and specifics.

YY,
your choice!
either you sign the NDA of the snake sliding/worm move or call me nuts to claim to create something 800years old DNA. Hehehhehe

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix



YY,
your choice!
either you sign the NDA of the snake sliding/worm move or call me nuts to claim to create something 800years old DNA. Hehehhehe

If Dr Chow have signed his, I'll sign mine. Hahahahaha!

NDA? I need a lawyer!!

[canglong]

originally posted by a voice of reason in the desert
An interesting side note, Leung Jan (who learned from Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yi Tai) and Fung Sui Ching (who learned from Dai Fa Min Gam) both have at least two lineages as their legacy to Wing Chun. Both have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ in one system but not the other.

Excellent point David! No song and no dance to follow.... just this

originally posted by hendrik
when people has doubt about themself and have fear that they stand on unsolid ground, they behave in a strange way and posting strange post.

hendrik this describes each and every post of yours on this forum to the T.