Emei/Omei Region

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hi Rene, I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?
-Rik

FYI, a friend of mine has a video of a closed door wing chun conference in mainland china in the mid 90s. One of the guys demonstrating had a form which mixed together actions from the three hand forms plus the dummy form as well i.e. it had the zigzagging footwork and po pai jeung (double inline palms).

Just to stress- As i recall- It was not slt then ck the bj one after the other- it was all the actions mixed together

By the By- all I know about this guy is that he was a policeman by profession.

[Nick Forrer]

Hi all,

This is a good discussion with lots of good info being shared- Please dont let it drag down into the quagmire of previous lineage arguments....

In other words.....

IGNORE THE TROLLS

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective, all this speculation is interesting and perhaps suggestive but not really probative. We can, not surprisingly, see "similarities" between a great many methods -- an article was even written a while ago speculating that WCK derived from western boxing! As Jim pointed out, loads of TCMAs have oral traditions linking them to Shaolin. One can take that metaphor literally or take it figuratively (it's trying to tell us something symbolically). If we look at it figuratively, we will see the universality of our "truths"; if we look at it literally, then we take the position that our metaphor is correct and the rest of the world is wrong. In either event, however, the only way to *prove* lineage, including what came from whom, is through lineage -- by proving a line of persons (from A to Z) which account for passage of influence. Lacking that, all we're left with is subjective interpretation ("it looks like Shaolin to me" . . . "No, it doesn't!" . . . "yes, it does") or speculation (did the three sets come from one or the one from combining three, etc.).

Regards,

Terence

[yuanfen]

Good points Nick on thread devlopment-

On the inter-relationships of the forms:

Of course without learning the slt well- one cannot learn ck and bj well.

Further, the chor ma of chum kiu and the biu and huen ma of biu jee creates unique moving platforms. Hence the hand motions adjust-
the wu, the tuit, the biu all adjust to protecting the line from new
positions.

The seeds of each of the forms are in the others as well-they really are linked- first in progression. Later- they forma circle- each devlopment strengthening the other.

The biu principle is there in all 3 hand forms-the biu in slt prepares you for the piercing of chum kiu and later the biu of biu jee. In turn at advanced stages- the biu of biu jee informs the
biu of the slt-making it more relaxed ad explosive.
joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Terence!


Good to see ya posting!


I think you make a great point! Let forget all the stories and the theories and the Emei and the Shaolin! Forget all that stuff!


Lets take all the known lineages that can be traced back to the Red Boat and show how the different families that are known from each of those lineages preserve their mold/methods? History does not mean sqwat but the one thing thats good about it is that we can see how they preserve the mold/engine. So, seeing how we have many versions on this KFO board then lets start by tracing them back and showing how many Kung Fu brothers and ancestors they have preserving this art that can be traced. After that we go into detail as to the exact engine they use and see what we come up with!

The whole Emei/Crane thing interests me for one reason! Whats that reason? Analyzing the engine/concept and see how they evolved! Same goes for Shaolin engine. Then, we can leave all the debating about the history thing and just go for the beef!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

"You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?"

All and none. It's really no big deal. See below.

"Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt."

Yes, but they have a SLT that is 4x longer than most other lineages.

"Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji."

They don't separate their set and call the 2nd and 3rd sections by those names, but they have those sections.

"SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity."

So do each sub-section of each set, such as '3-Prayers-to-Buddha', however, they retain those identities when trained in sequential manner, when isolated, when explored, etc. just as Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc. retain their identities when trained on their own, or when sequenced into one complete long set, each building on the one before.

"Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ."

We don't know this. We only know that Wong Wah-Bo had those three sets, because both Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen learned them from him. Since there are no other students known of for Leung Yee-Tai, and Dai Fa Min Kam's other students did not learn SLT, Chum Kiu, or Biu Jee, we have no evidence to show they used those names or had that organizational model for their own versions of WCK.

[Jim Roselando]

David,


Um Jim, by definition "Ging" is a concept. To be more specific "ging patterns" are high-concepts.

Ging = Path Of Force

They teach the body how to issue and recieve energy. So, by watching Ging issuing one can easily tell what it is driven by IMO. JR

I digress, let's walk the string and not sidetrack the discussion. You said since the hand patterns look like Wing Chun hands there must be a connection. I say a techinque is empty. No connection can be made from form alone!!

If you want to believe that then that is fine. Watching someone issue Ging tells a big story. Technique is just a technique. Body powering and structure shows a lot. JR

Again context Jim. You said terms like [paraphrased .... "Snake Body/Swimming Body/Swimming Dragon/etc.. " are found in Zhuang systems and somewhere YKSWC mentioned something about dragons (or something similar) so there is a connection.]

I am simply pointing out those terms are common However,they hold intrinsic and specific meaning when applied to and taught within individual systems. In short, the term "dragon body" and the like are common terms. Easily those terms can hold entirely different meanings to a Ba Gwa Zhang practitioner than it does a practitioner of Lung Ying Kuen.

Are you kidding me or do you like wasting time? I think this last writing shows how you understand what you are reading or does someone need to write out everything so that it leaves no room for possible trolling. Some stuff should be obvious! Yet! You only pick a piece and troll it. Go study a Zhuang system or go discuss with Emei Ba Gwa people and then tell me if the Engine doesn't have a connection. Yet! Maybe it does not connect to your art but to others it may! Then, after that, go to the Dragon (for comparison) and other stuff you say;

Hold entirely different meaning to!

Well, congrats! I already know that! Its good to see you understand that to or do you? Until you do then please stop wasting time especially since the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also have exact stuff as to the Zhuang arts. Unless you do not perserve a Rou Jing version of the WC art. JR

Um Jim this is from your first post ... "So, there are some who do not want to believe there is a possible connection with Emei and Wing Chun.This info. is not designed to try and persuade anyone but give a bit of info. I found when I started to look into that theory and why I think its more likely!"

and this ....

"I started to look into different art that show roots in that region. After that I looked into their engine/details. We can use a few systems or methods as examples; ..... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang ... Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"

Believe what I want ??? You offered points and I offered counter-points providing links when possible as independent information to illustrate said counter-points.

David! Just like in the past you connot discuss with logic. Just like your understanding of how other arts may think of Snake/Swimming/etc differently! Yet! Why dont you explain the difference? Look forward to seeing that in this thread! JR

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

You did! May not have used those exact words (as this is how I have to write things based on type of debating) but you stated:

Only the dead ancestors know!

You also stated in the past (make sure I say in the past because of the word games and I want no confusion);

It was a combo of Military and Monk!

So, since you have nothing to add to the possible investigation other than those two and to date you have not brought anything to the table I will go with the investigation of the Snake/Crane history links of the known lineages! Yet! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR


This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS I know you will write back and get your last word but please do us all a favor and discuss how the Swimming Dragon body of Lung Ying and the Emei Swimming Dragon body relate or have differences! Looking forward to it!


Regards,

[t_niehoff]

Hi Jim,

I'm not suggesting that these type of discussions be abandoned, just that they are considered in proper context. Hendrik's idea of a link between WCK and White Crane/Ermei is IMO worthy of consideration as is the idea of a link between weng chun and WCK (hey, maybe they all contributed -- who knows?). My point is that these can direct us where to look for evidence of a possible lineage -- because in the end, the only way to *prove* a connection is via lineage (two people can do something similar and not be connected in any way; and, two people can do something very differently and have a personal connection).

Regards,

Terence

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by reneritchie
"You mentioned that this specific version of WC doesn't take a tres between set. I had heard that originally, SLT. CK. and BJ were all one set. Have you also heard this? And which if any systems still practice it like this?"

All and none. It's really no big deal. See below.

"Of course you did !!!! Wing Chun from Yik Gam has only slt."

Yes, but they have a SLT that is 4x longer than most other lineages.

"Yik Gam Wing Chun family does not have Chum Kiu and Biu Ji."

They don't separate their set and call the 2nd and 3rd sections by those names, but they have those sections.

"SNT/SLT, CK, BJ are seperate forms. Each form has it's own identity."

So do each sub-section of each set, such as '3-Prayers-to-Buddha', however, they retain those identities when trained in sequential manner, when isolated, when explored, etc. just as Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc. retain their identities when trained on their own, or when sequenced into one complete long set, each building on the one before.

"Wing Chun from Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa min Gam et al. have SNT/SLT, CK, BJ."

We don't know this. We only know that Wong Wah-Bo had those three sets, because both Leung Jan and Fok Bo-Chuen learned them from him. Since there are no other students known of for Leung Yee-Tai, and Dai Fa Min Kam's other students did not learn SLT, Chum Kiu, or Biu Jee, we have no evidence to show they used those names or had that organizational model for their own versions of WCK.

This is a discussion very much worth having. Actually this should be it's own thread as not to detract from this one.

-David

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
They teach the body how to issue and recieve energy. So, by watching Ging issuing one can easily tell what it is driven by IMO. JR

Jim, stay on track buddy. We are talking about the hand technique of White Crane not Ging patterns.

Actually when you we're talking about energy and how to " issue and recieve energy" you were talking about Dragons and Snakes not birds. That's what you said right?

Oh yea you said ....

" ......So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? .....

.... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang as Hendrik claims and as the Yuen Kay San lineage claim minus the Emei info and replace it with his own knowledge) with the Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"


But your next paragraph says ....


" ... Watching someone issue Ging tells a big story. Technique is just a technique. Body powering and structure shows a lot. JR"

A simple technique is a simple technique. Agreed! What makes the difference is what is behind the technique. (Infered agreement.) I assume that "behind the technique" is what you call "body powering" and "structure". (Again infered agreement)

Following your logic how can you simply pluck the wings off a Crane and stick them on a Dragon??

Following your logic, only Fujian White Cranes can fly with those wings, not Emei Dragons.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Are you kidding me or do you like wasting time? I think this last writing shows how you understand what you are reading or does someone need to write out everything so that it leaves no room for possible trolling. Some stuff should be obvious! Yet! You only pick a piece and troll it. Go study a Zhuang system or go discuss with Emei Ba Gwa people and then tell me if the Engine doesn't have a connection.

Kidding you?? I thought we were discussing your connection of Emei Dragon Body to Wing Chun kung fu here. So no I'm not kidding.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Yet! Maybe it does not connect to your art but to others it may! Then, after that, go to the Dragon (for comparison) and other stuff you say;

No maybe about it! Actually it looks like I'm not alone; the WCK practiced from the most senior members of the Red Boats have no connection, their legacy has no connection. If it's not connected to Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai Dai Fa Min Gam and 99.9% of the Wing Chun families in the world. OK. Im not the one acerting it is.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Well, congrats! I already know that! Its good to see you understand that to or do you? Until you do then please stop wasting time especially since the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also have exact stuff as to the Zhuang arts. Unless you do not perserve a Rou Jing version of the WC art. JR

Whoa buddy !! Let me ask you the same question you just asked me - Except I'm askin after this ..... Zhuang arts??? Did you just make that up ???? Don't insult the intellegence of this forum! Is this some word play game to connect Bagua Zhuang to the "mysterious" Zhan Zuaung? Do you even know the difference??

Zhuang as in Bagua Zhuang translates to: Palm.
Bagua Zhang translates to: Eight (8) Directional Change Palms
Identified as: WuDang Gung Fu System

Zhuang as in Zhan Zhuang translates to:Post
Zhan Zhuang translates as: Standing Post
Identified as: Chi Kung exercise.

So what Zhuang Arts?? Standing Post meditation?? 8 Directional Change Palms?? Bear Palm from Xing Yi??? Did this Zhuang/Jong connection come from the term Bai Jong???

"Its good to see you understand that to or do you?"

Do you or do you still need me to spell it out for you???

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
David! Just like in the past you connot discuss with logic. Just like your understanding of how other arts may think of Snake/Swimming/etc differently! Yet! Why dont you explain the difference? Look forward to seeing that in this thread! JR

Not discussing with logic??? Oh I get it Thats what Terrence meant by ,"Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth." Hmmm ...

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

You did! May not have used those exact words ....

Well then it wasn't me who said it now is, Jim?

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
So, since you have nothing to add to the possible investigation other than those two and to date you have not brought anything to the table I will go with the investigation of the Snake/Crane history links of the known lineages! Yet! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR

To what you call an investagation, any good investigator can see this is gone cold.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS

Jim, I honestly hoping you aren't refering to me as a troll. But if you were, have some self respect man. No need to resort to name calling. After all you asked for thoughts on you connection, didn't you?

oh yea here it is as the salutation on your first post ....

"Thoughts?"


-David

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
They teach the body how to issue and recieve energy. So, by watching Ging issuing one can easily tell what it is driven by IMO. JR

Jim, stay on track buddy. We are talking about the hand technique of White Crane not Ging patterns.

Actually when you we're talking about energy and how to " issue and recieve energy" you were talking about Dragons and Snakes not birds. That's what you said right?

Oh yea you said ....

" ......So, if almost all Wing Chun claim to be a combo of Snake and Crane then would it be that the Snake is really the body and the Crane is the boxing? .....

.... So, if Miao Shun was the person who combined his own knowledge (which could be Emei Zhuang as Hendrik claims and as the Yuen Kay San lineage claim minus the Emei info and replace it with his own knowledge) with the Ng Mui art which would be White Crane then doesn't show a more likely possiblilty?"


But your next paragraph says ....


" ... Watching someone issue Ging tells a big story. Technique is just a technique. Body powering and structure shows a lot. JR"

A simple technique is a simple technique. Agreed! What makes the difference is what is behind the technique. (Infered agreement.) I assume that "behind the technique" is what you call "body powering" and "structure". (Again infered agreement)

Following your logic how can you simply pluck the wings off a Crane and stick them on a Dragon??

Following your logic, only Fujian White Cranes can fly with those wings, not Emei Dragons.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Are you kidding me or do you like wasting time? I think this last writing shows how you understand what you are reading or does someone need to write out everything so that it leaves no room for possible trolling. Some stuff should be obvious! Yet! You only pick a piece and troll it. Go study a Zhuang system or go discuss with Emei Ba Gwa people and then tell me if the Engine doesn't have a connection.

Kidding you?? I thought we were discussing your connection of Emei Dragon Body to Wing Chun kung fu here. So no I'm not kidding.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Yet! Maybe it does not connect to your art but to others it may! Then, after that, go to the Dragon (for comparison) and other stuff you say;

No maybe about it! Actually it looks like I'm not alone; the WCK practiced from the most senior members of the Red Boats have no connection, their legacy has no connection. If it's not connected to Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yi Tai, Dai Fa Min Gam and 99.9% of the Wing Chun families in the world.... OK. Besides, Im not the one accerting it is.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Well, congrats! I already know that! Its good to see you understand that to or do you? Until you do then please stop wasting time especially since the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit also have exact stuff as to the Zhuang arts. Unless you do not perserve a Rou Jing version of the WC art. JR

Whoa buddy !! Let me ask you the same question you just asked me - Except I'm askin after this ..... Zhuang arts??? Did you just make that up ???? Don't insult the intellegence of this forum! Is this some word play game to connect Bagua Zhuang to the "mysterious" Zhan Zuang? Do you even know the difference??

Zhuang as in Bagua Zhuang translates to: Palm.
Bagua Zhang translates to: Eight (8) Directional Change Palms
Identified as: WuDang Gung Fu System

Zhuang as in Zhan Zhuang translates to:Post
Zhan Zhuang translates as: Standing Post
Identified as: Chi Kung exercise.

So what Zhuang Arts?? Standing Post meditation?? 8 Directional Change Palms?? Bear Palm from Xing Yi??? Did this Zhuang/Jong connection come from the term Bai Jong???

"Its good to see you understand that to or do you?"

Do you???? Or do you still need me to spell it out for you???

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
David! Just like in the past you connot discuss with logic. Just like your understanding of how other arts may think of Snake/Swimming/etc differently! Yet! Why dont you explain the difference? Look forward to seeing that in this thread! JR

Not discussing with logic??? Oh I get it Thats what Terrence meant by ,"Thirdly, ad hominem attacks, in their various forms, are a simply a sign that the person making them has been intellectually defeated; otherwise, sound, rational argument as opposed to these types of fallacies would be put forth." Hmmm ...

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Who ever said anything about "arts can just Poof and majically appear" ??? Actually you're the one asking for thoughts on Emei poofing majically into Wing Chun history ......

You did! May not have used those exact words ....

Well then it wasn't me who said it now is, Jim?

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
So, since you have nothing to add to the possible investigation other than those two and to date you have not brought anything to the table I will go with the investigation of the Snake/Crane history links of the known lineages! Yet! Please do join in the discussion with some actual information other than your above two theories that mean nothing unless you can show something to back it up. JR

To what you call an investagation, any good investigator can see this is gone cold.

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
This part of this discussion is over for me. I am taking Nick Forrer's advice! IGNORE THE TROLLS

Jim, I honestly hoping you aren't refering to me as a troll. But if you were, have some self respect man. No need to resort to name calling. After all you asked for thoughts on you connectio, didn't you?

oh yea here it is as the salutation to your first post ....

"Thoughts?"


-David

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


I just finished a phone call with local Gao Ba Gwa representative regarding Snake/Dragon/Swimming etc. again. The first thing we discussed was the difference between terms! As a open and honest person he had no goal in saying one was better or worst and this was his answer;

Jim, for the chinese there is not a difference when discussing the internal mechanics of Snake/Dragon/Swimming. Why? Its the same thing for them as they know exactly what you mean when you mention it. Its a specific way of moving the body. So, call it snake or dragon doesn't really matter. Those who know what it is/do it will know exactly what you are talking about.

He then spoke about the roots of these arts! Stating that all the Rou Jing arts will base there foundation in Zhuang training. This is how one starts to transition his body from the inside out and open them up for further development. Funny thing was that he stated not only Ba Gwa but other arts like Xing Yi, Chen/Tai Chi/Lui Ho Ba Fa/Yi Chuan etc. etc. all share that trade mark of developing as they are Rou Jing arts. Why? They utilize this maxim and try to express it thru their art: Movement in Stillness! WCK utilizes this maxim and as I wrote before Leung Jan stated:

Use quiet to overcome active!

The power of this type of body mechaninc is indeed different from the non elongated arts. As he described it: The power is sent in a shocking short wave up the spine and out. Compressed arts produce a different type of power. Yet! He was clear to say that it was all lead by the waist/kwa! That was the director or the body/energy.

Now! Non of this is designed to say that Ba Gwa has some influence on WCK. Its designed to show how Emei region art share trademark power generation as does Zuang based arts like Yi Chuan etc..

I will attach below a photo of Dragon. Notice the horse and alignment!

Following that I will attach a piece of some writing regarding where Dong Hai Chuan learned his boxing and check out the title of the article. I will also attach a photo of a Ba Gwa representative. Check out the horse and alignment!

After that I will attach a foto of a Zhuang based art. Use your imagination and attach the White Crane hands/centerline theory to his posture.


Hope you enjoy it!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


This is part two! Please note the Swimming Body term and note that location of Dong's training!

See the attached photo and note the structure!


An Excerpt from the Biography

of

Bagua Zhang's Venerable Master Dong Hai-Chuan

as recorded by Master Wang Shu Jin in Bagua "Swimming Body" Palm

It is said that the venerable master Dong Hai-Chuan was from Zhi Li of the Qing Dynasty (currently He Bei province), Wen An county. It is also said that he was a native of Tung Zou. As a child he was fond of gambling and was very mischievous. He ran away to the capital city and while there was homeless and poverty stricken. Feeling humiliated, Dong wandered south, traveling extensively and exploring the mountains while living in seclusion. Until one day when he arrived in E-mei mountains in Sichuan province where he met two old Daoist priests, Gu Ji-Zi and Sang Dao-Yuan. They inquired of Dong's intentions and in doing so perceived his unique nature and immediately accepted him as disciple. They taught Dong martial arts and the secrets of the River Diagram Magic Square (he tu luo shu). The two old priests also taught him the method of eight trigram circle walking, adjusting his structure and instructing him in the practice of circling a tree. They instructed him to walk until the tree began to chase him and then report this occurrence back to them. He would then be allowed to freely eat and drink. Dong was confused, failing to understand and yet not daring to ask further questions. Since this was the situation he found himself in he just decided to do as he was told. Dong began to practice laboriously day and night. After seven years he had worn a three-foot deep trough around the tree he walked. On one particular day he suddenly felt as if the tree he was circling had started to rock back and forth. He immediately understood. Just as his teachers had said, the tree was chasing after him. When he returned to report to his two masters, they verified his experience and were very happy. Because Dong was a promising student they continued to teach him the "figure eight turning method", and the began instructing him to circle two trees. After another two years, again the trees began to chase him. The masters praised but then also asked him if he missed his home or not. Dong answered "Yes, I do!". Their respect for Dong had risen. He had not lost his original nature. Next they taught him "palm method changes" and drilled him continuously for two more years until he had completed his training. His masters then told him to leave the mountain and return home. As he returned home he passed through many counties and provinces and attended every martial arts competition he could, winning each contest. In this way Dong began spreading the reputation of Bagua Zhang. Dong carefully obeyed his masters and hence the name Bagua Zhang became known throughout the country...

[Jim Roselando]

Attached is a photo of a Zhuang based art. Note the structure and imagine Crane hands/centerline theory attached to it!

[Jim Roselando]

Attached is a photo of White Crane the Zong He version!

Place this on the previous Zhuang photo!