Originally Posted by Knifefighter
I remember that...did we ever find out that "kung fu" guys name ??
GM of Hadaka Korosu
I remember that...did we ever find out that "kung fu" guys name ??
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Not really fair to take one person and hang the reputation of an entire art on his performance. Quite frankly, Marsh is an accomplished professional fighter and I dare say that any martial artist will NEVER beat a professional fighter. Style had nothing to do with the facts.
Personally, it didn't seem like that bright of an idea to begin with. Any "Master" of any style so braggard as to offer a challenge like that isn't really a master. Somewhere along the lesson plan he must have missed the part about humility. Fortunately Mr. Marsh was there to remind him.
San Soo has been *******ized (SCARS, SAFTA, etc.) just as many other systems have. There are many fine people and excellent practitioners that just don't participate in such nonsense. That doesn't mean San Soo is terrible.
Rickson Gracie once said that the most dangerous fighters he had ever seen have never stepped into the ring/cage. That's just not what they want from what they do.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Most if not all elite level fighters will tell you of someone they would never mess with and usually that person never or rarely competed.
Different times, different people, different viewpoints.
Registered User
HaHaha
No Rule ....I dont saw biting(the jugular will be good) ,hair pulling .....knife or weapons
Registered User
It had everything to do with the fact that the San Soo guy never sparred or fought because his techniques were "too deadly" to do for real. He, the other instructors at the school, and the student had no idea how good or bad they were because they never went full contact.
Just as important was the fact that he did no grappling and had no clue how to defend against a grappler.
Anybody at any school that doesn't do full contact (including grappling) would end up in the exact same situation.
Back in those days (when John was a purple belt), Royce used to beat him regularly and Royce was just as skinny as that guy.That guy's one leg has more meat that the San Soo guys everything.
Last edited by Knifefighter; 05-30-2007 at 05:24 PM.
Registered User
yeah if it was no rules he should have at least brought an axe
Banned
Nothing you said changes the points I made. It still has nothing to do with the fact that it was MMA vs. San Soo. It could have just as easily been a wrestler vs. boxer or MT vs. TKD or any other one art vs another. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters was that it was one fighter (physically conditioned, experienced and prepared) vs. another fighter (if you can call him that which was unconditioned, inexperienced and ill-prepared).
I agree with the fact the San Soo guy was a chump, but that doesn't mean anything about the system. Every martial art in practice has its cream of the crop and also that sludgy stuff that gets settled to the bottom of the barrel. No style, art or whatever is immune to this. Not even BJJ or MMA. I can point you to plenty of MMA schools which are just as McDojo as any TMA school regardless of style. Greed doesn't require a black belt.
As for his ability to defend. He didn't have the skill to defend period; striking, grappling or otherwise. So again what style he or Marsh profess means absolutely nothing.
I'll agree, 90% of the martial artists in America have absolutely no idea how to properly train for a fight. And I'll even go far enough to say that at this time, a lot of the MMA groups are well ahead of the average school. But the system of proliferation in this country is as such that as we speak a lot of places claiming MMA or BJJ are falling into that same category. Anyways, the point is this fight was a simple case of one fighter which was prepared vs another that wasn't. Simple as that. Style makes no difference.
Now as for the Gracie comment...
Did you miss that part of my paragraph were I said skill being equal? This is one of those cases which MMA/BJJ guys are just as guilty of master idolization as any other TMA. Everybody says Gracies can do this Gracies can do that...
Guess what? BIG DEAL!! Its not a surprise in anyway. You know why? Cuz grandpa Gracie had those guys doing arm bars and chokes since they were in diapers. The Gracies are incredible fighters. But its not because BJJ is so superior or that they are somehow superhuman. Its simple experience. Those guys had more fighting experience by the time they were 20 than most fighters in their 30s. They are in that group of rare people that do not fall into the youth vs. experience battle because they started so young, they had (and as for the up and coming gracies..have) both. To lump and entire style into that is just as rediculous as the TCMA guys claiming so and so style this because they have master that...
Still, skill being equal...the big guy will win 9 times out of 10. The Gracies, there aren't too many people that have that skill level around now are there?
Now I'm not disagreeing with you in your statements. But you need to look at all the facts. The style doesn't make the fighter. Its the competency of the teacher, the realism of the training and the drive of the fighter in question. And the Gracie family is not a group of average martial artists. That family is a legacy in MA regardless of style. Don't trivialize the blood, sweat, time and broken bones those guys have suffered to get to that point by placing a broad group of people on those shoulders. With the way they train, they could be doing tai chi and they'd still be kicking @$$.
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And here in lies the problem. The general consensus and main argument against TMA is that it PRODUCES fighters just like him (unconditioned, inexperienced, and ill-prepared) time and again. You reach a point when you have to take a closer look at the training methods that the system encourages regularly. Its not ALL about the individual. IMO, kung fu across the board is at fault for hanging on to these archaic training practices and hiding behind "tradition" in favour of evolution. That said, its easy enough to correct. "If you want to fight, you have to train like a fighter."
Banned
See, what you are saying though isn't exactly accurate. Its not wrong, but its just that its another blanket statement...and those just aren't adequate. Its funny really, Americans hold more onto this "tradition" that even any Chinaman I've met. Maybe its just because I've had the fortune of living in Asia for a little while. Granted I was in Okinawa but even there I met some Chinese immigrants. And here in the states, as corny as it sounds...working in the Chinese restaurants haha.
You know, one guy I used to work with...he used to tell me that suit all the kung fu guys wear...he used to laugh when he would see an American walk around in them. I asked him why...he's like..."That's underwear."
As far as archaic traditions go. I know that popularised kung fu is watered down ballet. That's obvious and I'm not arguing that. The reason that these traditions are being held so tightly though isn't just a fear or reluctance of evolution. Its really not so deep. Its really just money in a lot of cases. I can think of a couple Chinese teachers that didn't even want to teach kung fu. They just wanted to come to the states and live the good life. Fry some rice and go fishing, honestly. But the restaurant failed and they realised they could make more money off some ignorant Americans wanting the Miyagi experience. They throw up some Buddha statues and say a few mantras.
The thing is that most MA schools in America survive by catering to the non-combatants. This is mostly kids. Soccer moms want to pawn their children off for a couple hours of piece and hope they'll learn some "kung fu favors pure heart" crap and they don't have to spank their kids into good behavior day after day. That or people just want to exercise for an hour or so a couple days a week. These are the things which keep kung fu stagnant. The art as a form of combat just isn't a major intent in America. And now half the people that want to fight don't realise they can't because they don't know better. It kinda goes into what my sifu always says, "What's tradition? Tradition is only what some guys teacher tells him is traditional."
Anyways now I'm just talking in jumbled nonsense. But let me put it like this. A buddy of mine (again from a Chinese restaurant) one day finally came to work out with me. He was from Taiwan. Now if you don't know, men in Taiwan are required to spend a couple years in military service...similar systems are in Korea and Germany for example. He learned his kung fu from his time in the military. That guy had some crazy skills. And his training as he described it, was really quite comparible to what you would say modern training. It had the typical exercise regime (weight lifting, running, etc.) The technical work would range from a group instruction (ie. working a new technique in a controlled somewhat compliant fashion). But after a few basic skills they pretty much went into live action sparring situations. They didn't hold horse stances for hours. They didn't really practice forms. Training was pretty cut and dry. Save for some really off the wall stuff that is really worst case scenario crap....like getting up from being hit my a car and having to fight back to a gun or something weird like that.
Similar thing in my time in Okinawa. Most of the time in class we were either practicing a new technique on each other or sparring. I would say 95% of the time my class session involved me trying to do something to a partner or my sensei. The other 5% was our warm-ups. I will say the kenpo classes tended to have more sparring than the Aikido class.
I'm sorry I went on such a tangent. Its just that this stranglehold on the "archaic" traditions, is something I personally have really only experienced here in America. Not to say that things aren't going weird in China with the whole Wushu thing though. But that the teachers that want to teach fighting, teach fighting...at least the ones I've met.
Its frustrating really. I really do enjoy the fighting aspect of kung fu. Now though that I'm back down in Florida. The old kung fu school closed down. My sifu sold it to one of the Tae Kwon Do students after he opened his accupuncture clinic, actually a married couple. Who happened to be swingers and the wife broke one of their swinger rules and the school was ruined in the divorce....she closed down the school without notifying any of the students and we had to threaten lawsuit just to get our crap out of the building. Now there is no one that wants to train fighting here. Man I wish I knew how my Hung Gar sifu in SC managed to get em fired up for fighting. That is the only school I've been to in America where everyone man or woman was enthuesiastic about mixing it up. I'd spend maybe 2 days out of a month on forms. And that was simply because it gave something to practice on my own. But in class, pretty much all we did was physical conditioning and then fighting and it was great.
I never had this problem when I was in Asia =( Even when I wasn't in class I could usually go to the base gym and find a Navy Seal or someone to mix it up with.
Banned
I guess what I wanted to say was that I know a lot of former Sifus that wanted to teach the real stuff. They wanted to train fighters and they wanted to practice their own fighting skills as well. But a lot of em got frustrated and closed shop because too many students would leave when things got rough. So is it just the kung fu that's at fault? Or does a lot of the resistance come from the students that don't want to make contact? I don't think its fair to say that Kung Fu as an art is entirely at fault. When a customer comes into a kwoon they aren't really looking for a UFC workout. Most of the time, they want to wear a uniform and smell incense. They want some cheesy hong kong movie music playing in the background. And most of em would go all class without looking at another person let alone sparring if they could, cuz they just spent all day dealing with other people at work.
Anyways, its not just kung fu. Every MA has this issue here whether its TCMA, Karate, TKD or MMA. I could link any of those to McDojo sites but I don't really care to start internet beef so I'm not going to do that. I'm just really fed up with MA in America in general.
Last edited by SoCo KungFu; 05-30-2007 at 09:10 PM.
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Knifefighter wrote:
It had everything to do with the fact that the San Soo guy never sparred or fought because his techniques were "too deadly" to do for real. He, the other instructors at the school, and the student had no idea how good or bad they were because they never went full contact.
You make a great point - but that is specific to his school, not the Art of San Soo. Really the only exposure there is to San Soo is that abortion of a "fight". That is because the majority of the practitioners do their thing amongst themselves. And in FACT there is a MMA champion by the name of Kyle Olsen that is primarily a San Soo artist. There are deadly techniques that aren't suited to the cage - similarly there are many people that aren't suited. Those that are, do. Those that aren't interested do not. Check this link for details on Kyle Olsen and San Soo.
http://www.insidekung-fu.com/content/view/54/36/1/0/
Street Fighter wrote:
And here in lies the problem. The general consensus and main argument against TMA is that it PRODUCES fighters just like him (unconditioned, inexperienced, and ill-prepared) time and again. You reach a point when you have to take a closer look at the training methods that the system encourages regularly. Its not ALL about the individual. IMO, kung fu across the board is at fault for hanging on to these archaic training practices and hiding behind "tradition" in favour of evolution. That said, its easy enough to correct. "If you want to fight, you have to train like a fighter."
You are exactly right. This 'beating' confirms both of our perspectives. You mentioned unconditioned, ill-prepared and inexperienced. EXACTLY. However you can find that person in any style and as you said - Kung Fu across the board. I'd like to expand that to include MARTIAL ARTS across the board.
SoCo Kung Fu - I enjoyed reading your stuff. Interesting.
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Hey guys
You forgot Kathy Long ....She came from San soo kung fu ....very good in kickboxing in the 80....
Kung fu san soo of GM Woo in the ealier years(the old method) was for street fighting with Frank Woosley .....He give a method ....the Ah soo ,fut ga ,Choy li ho ,dapga and num pi
each one teach you some lessons....of techniques ,and principles .....now some teach different call it Tsoi li ho fut ga but its the same different calls
Kung fu san soo is not traditionnal CLF or lama pai(hop gar or Tibetan White crane ....but look like ....
Steeve
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This post is wrong on so many levels.
I usually have no reason to repsond to the numerous ignorant ramblings on the internet nor do i feel the need to defend San Soo. However i can't let this slip.
This sounds like "My brother can beat up your brother."
Listen if you are trying to show how this MMA 230 pound Athlete has more fighting experience than this obviously poor example of a San Soo practitioner then you don't need to say anything. If you are saying that every MMA guy is better than every San Soo guy, you are moron holed up behind your safe little computer.
There are numerous examples of BJJ guys losing in the ring including the Gracies. Namely against Sakuraba "The Gracie Hunter" in Pride. He didn't train in Ju ju jitsu, he trained in catch wrestling. He broke Ryan and Renzo's arms in the process. And there is Matt Hughes that beat Royce. Countless other BJJ black belts that have lost to other Martial arts namely and most recently Kung Fu San Soo cage fighter Kyle Olsen, just to name one. He became the world champion in King of the Cage.
To answer the original person who asked about San Soo. There are good and bad instructors in every art. If you want to know how it fares in the street, you can interview most instructors about thier extensive street expreience. I have trained with Master Chris McCune, Master Dave Hopkins, Master George Kosty etc... all have plenty of street experience.
In fact Hopkins not only has trained with John Machado for years i think he has his brown or black and has has won grappling tournaments all the way up the ranks. In addition his san soo black belts have done the same. One in particular competed in the Machado open in vegas and won several times even against Machado's own students. Eventually he won the whole thing. He beat them at thier own game PLUS he had his own game down. Who do you think has the advantage? Huh?
Anyway, these are two different arts for two different purposes. You don't train for going to the front line in Iraq the same way you would train a local cop. You don't train a guy to fight multiple opponents the same way as one on one. No one tells you that you are about the confront a knife wielding thug or a gun carrying car jacker or a rapist. However you have months to prepare for a fight with coaches, steroids and the ability to tap. The street doesn't allow you to tap. Matchfighting and self defense are two different things. Frank Shamrock was interviewd recently on the dynamic Jiu Jitsu website recently as was asked, "How is what you do different than street fighting?" he replied," .... What we do is totally different than for the street. If i wanted to practice for self defense i would knee him to the groin, thumb the eye, run away etc..."
Myamato Musashi stated, "You fight as to how you train." So if you only train for sprt you will not automatically become lethal.
I will admit that most san soo guys are not what they used to be. They rest on the name of Jimmy H. Wo and his legend. This is a man that was an enforcer by the age of 16 and fought in true NO RULES Lie Tai matches. Combined with his street experience, he had over 1000 fights.
He even had a long standing open that stated "Place any hold on me and i can escape. If not i pay you $500." People came from all over the world and he never lost the challenge.
The point is that the art chooses you not the other way around. If you want to compete have lots of time on you hands, you should enter MMa over Karate tournamants. They are more realistic. But if you want to learn street smarts for the "AVERAGE GUY", do it right and don't square up with someone. You telegraph that you are a fighter. You have to be an actor. This is not a competition. Survive! That could mean running away. It could mean using a knife or a gun! It could mean getting your buddies to help! But it certainly doesn't mean posting a public challenge and fighting a 230 pound wildabeast!
Where was the weapons???? But you said no rules ****it!!!!
So to the guy with original question about san soo, as Harvy Katell in Pulp Fiction said, "Pretty Please. With sugar on top..." try out san soo you might like it.
god of war
she also has black belts in aikido, some style of karate (shorin ryu, I think), jujutsu and several years of boxing.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
Lama Pai & Choy Lay Fut
So you're telling me, that he fought once a day, for about three years straight, or ever other day for about 6 years, or 3 times a week for about 10 years, or 2 times per week for about 17 years, or once per week for about 36 years....uh, you get the picture, right? 1000 fights? No, not impossible, but NOT LIKELY BY ANY MEANS.
And the grappling thing? I'd like to see him put in a good solid triange and get out!
I don't know if Jimmy Woo was any good or not, but people always take things away from people, when they come up with these ridiculous claims. Did you see 1000 fights of his? 100? Right....so just leave it to: he had he rep of being a good fighter and had many street and challenge matches.
When you write 1000 fights, people will automatically think you are full of sh1t.
No disrespect towards Jimmy H. Woo, just a little friendly advice.
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