OT: Cops can demand ID, high court rules

[ShaolinTiger00]

Justice Bader-Ginsberg

I don't trust women with hypenated last names.

[red5angel]

If somebody refuses a search of their car does that mean they have a reason? MAybe they just don't want their stuff searched...

I allowed for that option but for the most part I don't buy it. If you don't have anything to worry about why refuse?

Frankly I don't see a problem with it. The police are provided to enforce the laws. Without the co-operation of this societies citizens you don't have law or order, you have anarchy. If you don't want anarchy you have to make allowances. In this case there is nothing unreasonable about making you produce your identification. Part of the reason you're even asked is to confirm you are not wanted for anything. If they are going to write you up on a violation, and you don't provide ID, how are they supposed to know you're who you say you are? At that point I say you get to go to jail until you prove otherwise, because your dumb ass refused to show ID.

I just don't fukking get it, what does this have to do with civil rights or anything else. Winterpalm, are so ignorant that you believe that not showing your proof of identity to a policeman is a right of some sort? I'm interested to hear from anyone, how policemen are supposed to do their jobs effectively if they don't have the right to confirm who they are speaking with? how the fukk does anything get done if anyone and everyone can opt to not prove who they are? What sort of sense does that even make?
Next thing we'll start hearing is how search warrants are wrong, how handcuffs are inhumane and how our government is trying to force it's morality on us by pursecuting murderes. Keeerist some people are dumb.

[Shen Zhou]

Not to get to in depth with the but the 4th amendment does apply to this issue. The 4th amendment states 'The rights to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property, from all unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized.'' The law is a funny thing it does not always go with what is truly right and just it some times goes to the person who can state better that right and just is on their side, prime example Atty. Jonnie Cochran and his well versed law defenses. What I would like to pull out of this is what I think is being violated within the 4th admen. “The right to be secure in their person…” What does this mean? Does this mean that I have the right to defend myself from questioning that I deem intrusive, potentially unlawful, and unreasonable as stated in the 4th? Who decides what is unreasonable to me? Does not giving my ID to an officer if I am a passenger in another’s car merit enough probable cause to warrant being arrested? What happen to guilty until proven innocent?


"The police are provided to enforce the laws. Without the co-operation of this societies citizens you don't have law or order, you have anarchy."

This would not be a problem if they did there jobs on the other end of the spectrum. There jobs is not to harasses the mass of people until they find one criminal. Their supposed jobs are to “protect and serve” not intimidation, stalking, and persecution of the people. But this is nothing new to America its been going on since its formation, from legal vigilantism towards the Native Americans, Legal bounty hunters sent out to find escape slaves, to legal detainment and imprisonment of American Asians, to enforcement of the South Jim Crow laws, to the 60’s and Communist witch hunts and the destruction of the black power structure, and Waco, Tx.

In this case there is nothing unreasonable about making you produce your identification.

Who is to deemed what is reasonable when it come to me and my person and my information, the government? If this is the case and I for one think that this is what it is coming to we are in a heap load of trouble.

Part of the reason you're even asked is to confirm you are not wanted for anything.

Where is the Probable Cause? What Provoked the questioning in the first place? If I give the officer cause to ask me for my ID then I deserve the questioning, but if I do not do I still deserve the questioning?

If they are going to write you up on a violation, and you don't provide ID, how are they supposed to know you're who you say you are? At that point I say you get to go to jail until you prove otherwise, because your dumb ass refused to show ID.

Probable Cause is giving with the violation. ID is warranted to be asked for.

I just don't fukking get it, what does this have to do with civil rights or anything else?

CIVIL RIGHTS to control your person, your information and your “destiny” with out having to be persecuted for nothing.

Winterpalm, are so ignorant that you believe that not showing your proof of identity to a policeman is a right of some sort?

Controlling your information is not a right? Basically being told you have to speak or you will go to jail is a better right?

I'm interested to hear from anyone, how policemen are supposed to do their jobs effectively if they don't have the right to confirm who they are speaking with?

The police have never performed their jobs effectively. Is this law supposed to correct the wrongs not only within the formal structure of the police system but also the human factor?

How the fukk does anything get done if anyone and everyone can opt to not prove who they are? What sort of sense does that even make?
Probable cause give the police the right to move forward more aggressive. Without it no need to get any thing done.

Next thing we'll start hearing is how search warrants are wrong, how handcuffs are inhumane and how our government is trying to force it's morality on us by pursecuting murderes.

LMAO There Not?

[Vash]

Good points SZ.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Waco, Tx and the David Coresh stand off was entirely too ****ed up. How can you kill all of the innocent hostages and not have reprocussions?

The Pendelum of Power swings only in one direction.

[red5angel]

ah SZ so many holes, so little time -

"from all unreasonable searches and seizures,"

Asking for an ID is not in anyway unreasonable. everytime you go to purchase alcohol or cigarettes or even get into a movie they ask for it.

"This would not be a problem if they did there jobs on the other end of the spectrum. There jobs is not to harasses the mass of people until they find one criminal."

Ah yes, because when cops aren't eating donuts they're out harassing innocent citizens! If cops are bad is your attitude then the conversation stops here.


"Who is to deemed what is reasonable when it come to me and my person and my information, the government?"

Who issues that ID to you again? Oh yes, the government! Is it your right or your privelage to carry it? to carry one is to participate in the system.

"Where is the Probable Cause? What Provoked the questioning in the first place? "

Who are you to determine probable cause? The police are trained to observe and intervene if necessary, even on a hunch, it's not a perfect science but it helps keep your ass alive and from being violated. Just like the police cannot be at all places at all times, they can't see perfectly what's going on all the time. If a cop has a problem or thinks there may be a problem, that's probable cause enough. It's his job.


"CIVIL RIGHTS to control your person, your information and your “destiny” with out having to be persecuted for nothing. "

right on brother, er I mean you got a serious complex me thinks. Asking for your ID is not violating your civil rights, nor is it persecuting you, it's asking you to confirm who you are. If the cop is going to persecute you, he has already made that decision long before he bothers to ask for your license. "Oh wait, it says here your black! I need to persecute you!"

"Controlling your information is not a right? Basically being told you have to speak or you will go to jail is a better right?"

You have the right to remain silent. In no way does producing proof of who you are incriminate or say anything about your guilt in anyway, unless your already wanted for something.

"The police have never performed their jobs effectively."

That's right dumba$$, you nailed it on the head. Cops have never done anything right in their lives, why bother having them, their just out there abusing their power and trying to keep us down. fukk, crawl out of your arse and open your eyes for a change. not all cops are bad and not all of them are not doing their jobs correctly, and your huge generalisation and overstatement shows that your feelings are anti-establishment, and reveal a certain hatred for authority figures.


"Probable cause give the police the right to move forward more aggressive. Without it no need to get any thing done."

That's right, so you have two choices, be a retard and not show your ID, where doe sthat get you? Your personal rights haven't been violated either way and they won't be violated either when you get to spend the night in jail. I can't think of one logical or legitimate argument for why one should not produce his ID when asked too. It's not a form of oppression, and if it's some sort of power play you're dealing with one sorry cop.

"LMAO There Not?"

No the people around you are. but feel free to move to a country where law holds almost no sway. But before you go, get a gun, a big one.

keeerist, that was the weakest argument I've seen on this board in a long time. You gotta try harder then blaiming the police and the government for all your woes.

[Vash]

Good points, R5A

[Merryprankster]

Asking for an ID is not in anyway unreasonable.

Exactly! And that's the end of it, in this instance.

[Rayfield]

Any of you that think its ok for police to ask for your ID for no reason at all are missing the big picture. And going to jail for not responding to the request is insane. People say "ahh, thats not a big deal" and let it slide. Over time they make these little changes that invade on your privacy then eventually we have no privacy. The whole reason this country exist is because people got feed up with authority figures invading in their lives. That kinda stuff goes against the very being of this country but none see it that way because over many decades these little changes have crept into our society little by little and everyone sees it as normal. Hell, at one point in this country duels to the death were accepted. Do something like that now and you rott in jail. Im not saying duels to the death are one of my rights but trying to stress how things change little by little. If it continues my childrens children wont be able to go the grocery store without some authority figure monitoring their daily activities. Just my opinion thou.


Ray

[Shen Zhou]

ah SZ so many holes, so little time –

Lmao So many holes huh? Well I just have one hole to deal with right now you and your foolish comments.

"from all unreasonable searches and seizures,"

Asking for an ID is not in anyway unreasonable. Every time you go to purchase alcohol or cigarettes or even get into a movie they ask for it.

And your point is what? At these places I don’t have to give them my ID if I don’t want to. That’s is a CHOICE if I want to show to them my ID to buy those things. CHOICE being the keyword in the sentence. Give me an example where if I don’t show my ID I will be taken to jail.

Ah yes, because when cops aren't eating donuts they're out harassing innocent citizens! If cops are bad is your attitude then the conversation stops here.

You can see my attitude over the internet? Lets see if we ( me and the police) match up:

1. Last couple years there have been how many cop related beatings then ended in death or maiming? 10+

Shen Zhou 0

2. Last couple of years there have been how many innocent people killed by the cops? 10+

Shen Zhou 0

3. Last couple of years how many cop have been found guilty of criminal behavior (ie stealing, raping, etc.)
10+

Shen Zhou 0

We can go on and on and on but I think that is enough to make your statement above look like the asinine statement it is.

Who issues that ID to you again? Oh yes, the government! Is it your right or your privelage to carry it? to carry one is to participate in the system.

Oh ok I see since the government gave me the ID they have the right to ask for it back. It does not belong to me at all it belongs to the government. It’s a privilege to carry around a laminated piece of paper with my birth date, height, weight, eye color, picture, sex, and address on it. That’s what you call privilege? Wow man civil liberties don’t mean anything to you huh?

Who are you to determine probable cause? The police are trained to observe and intervene if necessary, even on a hunch, it's not a perfect science but it helps keep your ass alive and from being violated. Just like the police cannot be at all places at all times, they can't see perfectly what's going on all the time.

Who am I to determine what probable cause is? I AM THE PEOPLE the ones who they are supposed to protect and serve. Their jobs are to be civil servants that means servants of the public. The people are meant to dictate how they want their government organizations ran but some where down the line government took over and started dictating what is best for the people. The people have no more rights we are being govern by a ruling class of select people. The police have never kept my ass alive or from being
violated.

If a cop has a problem or thinks there may be a problem, that's probable cause enough. It's his job.

So your telling me that any cop at any time can pull you over and harass, demean, search you and your person any time they have a hunch? WOW man you a sure straight shooter and a model citizen.


right on brother, er I mean you got a serious complex me thinks. Asking for your ID is not violating your civil rights, nor is it persecuting you, it's asking you to confirm who you are. If the cop is going to persecute you, he has already made that decision long before he bothers to ask for your license. "Oh wait, it says here your black! I need to persecute you!"


You’re a funny cat Red. I like how you add punchlines at the end of each statement it takes away from your points. Nice move.Violating because I HAVE to answer even if innocent. They have taken away the right by me to just not say anything. I don’t want you to know my name just cause its my name and my right if I want to tell it to you or not. I no longer have that right unless I want to go to jail.

You have the right to remain silent. In no way does producing proof of who you are incriminate or say anything about your guilt in anyway, unless your already wanted for something.

What if I just don’t want to tell them my name? Just cause I don’t want to is a freedom that has been taken away. But we all know that freedom is an illusion anyway so really what does it matter.

"The police have never performed their jobs effectively."

That's right dumba$$, you nailed it on the head. Cops have never done anything right in their lives, why bother having them, their just out there abusing their power and trying to keep us down. fukk, crawl out of your arse and open your eyes for a change. not all cops are bad and not all of them are not doing their jobs correctly, and your huge generalization and overstatement shows that your feelings are anti-establishment, and reveal a certain hatred for authority figures.

If cops are bad is your attitude then the conversation stops here. Yeah lets just keep the things the way they are at the moment. A not working system is better then not having one at all huh? Effectively in the sense that the system they work for does not work effectively so how can they perform correctly? So yes The police have never performed their jobs effectively. If your being taught the wrong way then you will do it the wrong way.

That's right, so you have two choices, be a retard and not show your ID, where doe sthat get you? Your personal rights haven't been violated either way and they won't be violated either when you get to spend the night in jail. I can't think of one logical or legitimate argument for why one should not produce his ID when asked too. It's not a form of oppression, and if it's some sort of power play you're dealing with one sorry cop.

LMAO

No the people around you are. but feel free to move to a country where law holds almost no sway. But before you go, get a gun, a big one.

keeerist, that was the weakest argument I've seen on this board in a long time. You gotta try harder then blaiming the police and the government for all your woes.


Where did I blame any one for my woes? Now my comments on your statements they are all empty of value, merit, common sense, and factual evidence. They are idiotic at best full of blank rhetoric like those of a dimwit sheep. No need to move any where else to be treated less then a citizen I can do all that right here in the good Ol’ USA. And as for me being anti- establishment I an not I vote, pay taxes, even have some friends in office so I am not out to dis-band the government but I for one do this it need and complete overhaul. So Red one last punch line for the road and I get this from the great Bid Daddy Kane “Put a quarter in your ass cuz your played yourself.”

[red5angel]

And your point is what? At these places I don’t have to give them my ID if I don’t want to. That’s is a CHOICE if I want to show to them my ID to buy those things

no the choice comes in purchasing the item, you HAVE to show and are required by law to show your ID to purchase them. But it was a good try, no really.

We can go on and on and on but I think that is enough to make your statement above look like the asinine statement it is.

Incorrect shen zhou it just backs up my argument. Anyone who wants to make huge sweeping generalizations about cops and their attitudes obviously has a problem with them in general. Just because one cop is bad, or a few may not handle situations apropriately doesn't mean they all are, but again, nice try.

Oh ok I see since the government gave me the ID they have the right to ask for it back.

Uh yes, that about sums it up.

I AM THE PEOPLE

Glad you capped that because YOU ARE NOT THE LAW nor do you ENFORCE THE LAW. A doctor is the one to determine what a disease is, why? Because he has the schooling and education to back it up. Not all doctors are right, but that doesn't mean doctors are all wrong, unless we go with your logic so far.

The police have never kept my ass alive or from being

interesting to see what your short sighted view would be if there were no police forces or law in the US.

So your telling me that any cop at any time can pull you over and harass, demean, search you and your person any time they have a hunch? WOW man you a sure straight shooter and a model citizen.

uh yeah, that's what I said, they should have the right to harass and demean you anytime . Or wait, no I didn't I said they have the right to ask for your ID at any time so that they can know who they are dealing with. "harass" and "demean" are emotional responses from someone who hates cops because they really don't understand and haven't taken the time to understand what cop is or does. Instead they want to propogate their ignorant views on authority by over generalizing and fear mongering based on their angry view of how they should get to live. Like I said Shen Zhou, anytime you want, move to a lawless third world country and see how long you survive

They have taken away the right by me to just not say anything.

no, they haven't as a matter of fact because of the miranda act you can remain silent until you have spoken with your attorney. Talking to the cops may incriminate you whether you deserve it or not, providing an ID in no way incriminates you unless you are already wanted by the law. There's no violation there.

I don’t want you to know my name just cause its my name and my right if I want to tell it to you or my

now I see your dysfunction. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want to have the comfort of living in a law abiding society, but don't want to have to make any of the sacrifices it takes to do so. sorry, you can't ever be 100% free until your dead Jumping on the "oh my god the government is taking our rights away bandwagon" isn't going to do anything but get you into the chicken little club.

Just cause I don’t want to is a freedom that has been taken away.

Just cause you don't want to? What are you 5? I reiterate that if you do not want to hand over ID you are most likely hiding something. It's the same with everyone I know who makes the same sorts of generalizing statements about cops you have been. They don't like cops cause cops almost always get in the way of their doing things they aren't supposed to do anyway.

OH MY GOD! I just figured out something! I can't choose to not wear clothes to work?! The government is taken my freedom away!!!!!!!!


keerist.....

and Vash, stop trolling you bastich!!!!

[Shen Zhou]

Cant argue with logic. When your right your right.

"Like I said Shen Zhou, anytime you want, move to a lawless third world country and see how long you survive"

Hmmmm I wonder.

[red5angel]

yeah, that wasn't predictable. How many cops are there again? ALL OF THEM? I don't think so....of course, maybe he didn't show them his ID like they asked

[Shen Zhou]

This has become more then isolated incidents. And I am sure you have been waiting to say that. Hey I am sure what ever he did deserved that beating right. Where did you say I had to go to live in a lawless country?

[red5angel]

that's right shen zhou, it's logical to assume that since a few of these cops did it and a few more cops from time to time do things like this, they all must be worthless. good attitude, I bet you have a name for every color of man and woman on the planet too dontcha?