Robert W Smith's shaolin text: Authentic?

[_William_]

Has anyone read "Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing" by Robert W Smith?

RW Smith claims that it is a shaolin text written anonymously by someone in mainland china. He says someone donated the text to him.

The book contains descriptions of Yijinjing, something called "Eighteen Exercises" (of which there are only 12 listed...?), and other stuff.

The reason I am somewhat suspicous of this book is the poetry near the end of the book. It rhymes in English. This seems a little too convenient to me, how classical chinese translated into english form perfect rhyming couplets? An example is "Like a dragon move here or there / To win or lose is a moments affair".

There are lots of these weird rhyming poems. Translated chinese doesnt rhyme in english.

Anyways, have you guys read this book and have any comments about it? Personally I think its probably a fake.

[mantis108]

I haven't read that book. But from the line that you provided, it seems to be from a sonnet of Shaolin. There are 2 sonnets of 8 lines each.

"Like a dragon move here or there / To win or lose is a moments affair".

This is the last 2 lines of the "Advance and Retreat Sonnet of Shaolin." The translation doesn't vividly give the meaning but it does convey the main message.

I would translate it according to the Chinese text as "Changes (movement) like a dragon, Slow or quick (timing) separates the victory (from) defeat."

You are right about not rhyming. If you could provide the rest, then we can verify this easily. The other sonnet is "Closing and Avoiding."

These sonnets aren't exactly secrets. They have been around in Chinese MA community for awhile. But then it's great that someone translated them.

Mantis108

[The Willow Sword]

of the hairy chewbacca grandmaster?



heheheh im sorry i had to do it.

PEACE,,,TWS

[_William_]

Here it is, it says it is from the martial traditions of Szechwan and Kweichow, but it gives no name.

"Advance with the wind's speed
Withdraw after the violent deed.
Go ahead with body sidelong,
Don't mind a little pushing on.
Shoot a power palm while exhaling,
For effectiveness a shout entailing.
Like a dragon move here and there,
To win or lose is a moment's affair."

Another one is:

"Edging and dodging need sharp eyesight;
You must move fast to left and right;
To dodging edging owes,
From the unreal the real goes.
A mountain slide you may escape,
By wedging ahead through the gape.
Flinch not at actions furious;
To beat the great with the small is truly curious."

Here is another one, which it says is written by a monk named Pan Hui:

Ch'i goes from the navel part,
Strength centers in the palm heart;
In the substatial your strength is found.
Exhale air while making a sound.
Upward pushing is necessary;
Pressing with a horse step, primary.
Remember Attacking, Pushing, and Blowing(Exhaling),
The bones near your pulses are forcefully going

The above three poems are the ones in Robert Smith's text. I would very much appreciate it if you could verify the authenticity of these poems.

[lkfmdc]

my favorite shaoln poem begins "there once was a monk from Nantuket..."

[cerebus]

Heh, heh, heh.

[GeneChing]

That book was one of the first major books in English on Shaolin. I looked up the Tuttle Publishing site and they list it as (C) 1999, but that's surely a reprint/revised edition date. I can to dig up my old copy and see what the original date is, if you're really interested. Since it was so early, it's a must-have for any serious Shaolin researcher in the English language. This is because all the English speaking researchers that came after probably stumbled on this one first, and that certainly had an influence on their folowing research, myself included (although I haven't engaged that book again in years).

Is it authentic? It does fall in line with a lot of other stuff that was floating around. 'Secret' texts are such a part of CMA, and you'll find forgery in those that go back 400 years. Many of these text attribute their origins to mythic beginnings, so often the introductions and forwards are fantastic, so much so that they couldn't possibly be true. But that was just the style of writing of the day (and it perpetuates now). It doesn't detract from the content.

As for the poems rhyming, if you have a lot of skill, you can translate a poem from another language so that it still rhymes. It's very difficult from Chinese, but I'd cite the numerous translations of Dante's Inferno, which has a bit of tricky meter. That has been successfully translated, preserving the rhyme.

[rogue]

there once was a monk from Nantuket...
Who fought with his head in a bucket...

[jun_erh]

in "chinese boxing" he describes how he got the book. I think one of his teachers had befriended and helped a wayward kung fu master out of a jam with the local authorities and as a reward the guy gave him the book.

[mantis108]

The first 2 are definately Shaolin Sonnet of Advance and Retreat, and Shaolin Sonnet of Closeing and Avoiding. Although the wording in English is changed quite a bit, it still somewhat convey the message. Having said that it is depending on the source of where these are from. The Shaolin part could be an add on from schools that has affiliations with the Shaolin temple. I have seen a source that said it is from Sezchuan area. BTW, there is claim that Shaolin has a temple/branch in that area. So... one would have to be careful of the claims. Regardless, the sonnets have been floating around for a while. In our style, Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai who studied Taizu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis had recorded these sonnets without the titles in his manuscripts. That's the first time I knew of these sonnet. Years later, I got a book in Chinese from mainland China about supposed Omei Sanda that has the same sonnets again not title. Finally, I found it on the internet no long ago that these are named as such.

If you are interested in my translation of them, I will work on them for you later.

I have no idea of what the third peom is. Sorry.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

Nice reply. I'd love to see your translation!

Hey, would anyone mind if we moved this thread down to the Shaolin forum? I think it would elicit more discussion down there and we wouldn't have to chase it to the second page as quickly as on the main forum.

[_William_]

Sorry for the late reply.

Mantis108, I would definitely appreciate a translation, and it would be extremely helpful if you could also supply the chinese characters, since I too am a chinese speaker. Do you know if the sonnets belong to any particular martial art?

Hmm... perhaps I was much too quick to dismiss Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing. It seems Robert Smith is a poet as well as a martial artist? I'll definitely read it through again tonight.

Theres still a few things that get me about the text.

For one thing, I didn't know that kung fu in China was divided into regional schools. The book lists different characteristics of the kung fu in different regions.

Also the book only lists 12 of the "18 Exercises", before Robert Smith inserts Yijinjing exercises because he says it is similar to the 18 exercises. Are the eighteen exercises the 18 lohan hands? They seem to have martial applications.

Geneching, I think moving it to the shaolin forum is a great idea.

[norther practitioner]

For one thing, I didn't know that kung fu in China was divided into regional schools. The book lists different characteristics of the kung fu in different regions.

.
That is really, really common. Look at contemp. wushu.. chang chuan and nan chuan.. northern tends to be "long" and southern "short"...

[mantis108]

Thanks. I agreed that it would be a good idea to move it over too.

Hi William,

Nice to know that you are Chinese speaking as well. I will scan in my notes later. You will have to pardon my hand writing though.

Before I post the translation, I would like to share some thoughts with you.

The regional divison is quite "common". There are a few ways to do this. One of which is using river regions. This method of division is quite helpful in establishing an evolution theory of CMA.
It helps in linking North Shaolin and Southern shaolin most effectively. Even the Hakka arts further south in the Guangdong area could be link to North Shaolin by this method. The concept of regional division would not be IMHO fraudulent.

I presume the 12 exercises could be from 18 Lohan hands (Shiba Louhan Shou) which is a set of Qigong like exercise. But I have heard that Northern Shaolin (the style) has 18 exercises or moves that have actual applications. Since I haven't read the book I can't tell which one is that.

I have come across 3 different " forms" of conditioning. They are pretty ancient. One is Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo with 24 forms/moves, another is Wu style Taiji 24 postures Neigong, and finally Mantis' 18 Lohan and paida gong.

The Shuai Jiao one can be found on

Shuai Jiao Conditioning form

There seems to be an extremely interesting relationship between Shuai Jiao's gong form and the Wu Style Taiji Neigong form.

The 18 Lohan Gong might have a Sezchuan connection although its documentation can be found in the Shandong praying mantis community.

All 3 Gong forms have actual combat applications or strengthing the applications.

So in disney's tune: it's a small world after all.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Robert Smith's version:

"Advance with the wind's speed
Withdraw after the violent deed.
Go ahead with body sidelong,
Don't mind a little pushing on.
Shoot a power palm while exhaling,
For effectiveness a shout entailing.
Like a dragon move here and there,
To win or lose is a moment's affair."

My translation:

Shaolin Pugilism Advance and Retreat Sonnet:

1. Advance (with) steps swiftly like the wind.

2. Losing oppotunity the retreat should be quick.

3. Capitalize (his) lost enter from the flank.

4. Torso slightly launch forward

5. Palm (that contact) solid must immediately release (energy) *could use spit instead of release*

6. Do use vocalizing, scaring and strange tactics.

7. Changes (movement) like a dragon

8. Slow or quick (timing) separates the victory (from) defeat.

Another one is:

"Edging and dodging need sharp eyesight;
You must move fast to left and right;
To dodging edging owes,
From the unreal the real goes.
A mountain slide you may escape,
By wedging ahead through the gape.
Flinch not at actions furious;
To beat the great with the small is truly curious."

Shaolin Pugilism Closing and Avoiding Sonnet:

9. Closing and avoiding requires sharp eyes.
*dodge could be used instead of avoiding*

10. (taking) Leftside or rightside follows the oppotunity to execute.

11. Closing (oppotunity) from within avoiding

12. solidify (position) from everywhere.

13. Despite (His) conditioning surpasses me.

14. A gap opens (in his offense/defense) advance foward without stopping.

15. Thou shalt not fear the double fierceness (in his action)

16. 4 taels removes a thousand catties.

Here's the rough translation. As you would notice there is some difference in the wording and the meaning aren't quite exactly the same although it is similar in a way.

Mantis108