weight lifting vs pure bw

[rubthebuddha]

with guys like Ford, Iron, Toby, possible RTB, etc being so fanatical or dedicated their system

only system i'm fanatical for is scientific fact.

science gives us the idea of SAID. according to this, one's body adapts to the demands under which it is placed. wonder why marathoners don't have enormous quads? big legs serve no purpose in such endurance work. rather, smaller, more durable muscles work. ever wonder why metal smiths have really large forearms? because their work requires impressive hand and wrist strength, and big forearms get the job done.

everything is about adaptation. if we bench heavy, our bodies will adapt to be able to do that specific task. but if we don't do endurance work, the next time coach asks us to drop and give him 50 pushups, we'll be gasping at 14. the same goes for the endurance fan. coach tells them to drop and give 50, they'll push out 50 before you can blink. but when coach says hit the weights, they'll be struggling to bench a quarter more than their own body weight for more than a couple reps. i can pump out 50 pushups on demand, and will taunt toby incessantly because he has the endurance of a big mac at an overeaters anonymous meeting. however, if i tried to squat how much toby does, my back would crumple and you'd find me lying in a heap under the weights.

if you want to get good at lifting heavy, lift heavy. if you want to get good at endurance work, do endurance work. body weight will only get you so far until your body gets used to the resistance. the only way to get stronger is to ... add more weight.

[rubthebuddha]

So, you'll be posting some links for us then??

that's like grouchy smurf telling jokey smurf to not be so angry all the time.

[IronFist]

I'm not fanatical about one system being the best for everything.

rtb said it best:

only system i'm fanatical for is scientific fact.

If I want strength I train with heavy weights. If I want endurance I do endurance stuff.

I just make sure I know what's going on so I don't end up thinking that running a lot or doing a lot of pushups will let me squat and bench a lot of weight.

[FooFighter]

MS. Blooming Lotus

I am having a hard time of understanding your points. I guess I will have to ask you some questions. For example, I didnt get this paragraph: "When you're talking about many individuals the argument becomes a case study. Matt furey may be slick, but we are not so much talking about him so much more than in the capacity of a signular of many examples."

Are you saying that we should stay away from field case studies which is based on scientific theory and reasoning and just focus on few indivdual cases? How objective is that and what good would that be for the exercise physiology? Also what theory are you speaking about you wrote "This theory [what theory, BL?] has made sense to me for quite some time, and is how I have trained for several yrs, hence the thread, with guys like Ford, Iron, Toby, possible RTB, etc being so fanatical or dedicated their system [what system, BL?]....".

BL, Bruce Lee is one of the first martial artists who started using western exercise science to improve his performance and as he matured he got away from his previous body weight exercises and focus on strength conditioning. My reference to Lee is not a point for or against bw exercises. My point is objectively knowing what your body needs to be functional and doing what needs to get done. Ironically, due to Bruce Lee many martial artists started to take up western strength conditioning as a mean to improve their skills and disaproving the myths of men like Matt Furey. Lastly, perhaps Body building Science has corrupted many martial artists and even atheletes of what is authentic strength/power. Body building has led me astray for short time. <wink>

[red5angel]

Hershell Walker claims he only used (still uses) body weight training, and he was a monster in college, the USFL, and the NFL. He claims he's never touched weights.

That's an urban legend. He does and did use weights but he also did alot of body weight exercises.


As for navy seals and army rangers, if no one has said it before now - there are a couple of reasons Mr. Fury forgets to mention as to why they mostly use body weight type stuff. First, large amounts of muscle mass are hard to support, you have to get alot of calories and you have to lift a lot of weight consistantly. Something you won't necessarily be able to do when humping it 120 miles to the bad guy and back. It also just takes way too much time considering all the life saving and life taking training your doing in those professions. In short, weight lifting is not practical but body weigt exercises go with you

[abobo]

BWE definitely has its place. It's a good place to start for most people for a few reasons.
1) usually convenient
2) lots of variations of compound movements; someone relatively untrained can get a challenging workout
3) the nervous system adapts faster than connective tissue, so going hardcore into the gym from the start might lead to injury

Those are all good things. Number three will be a lesser issue after a while though. After that, what do you miss by skipping the iron?

Even with stuff like stances, side lunges and pistols, the resistance of your body is not the most efficent way to strengthen your legs. Doesn't do much for the posterior chain either.

You could move into doing more explosive stuff and depth jumps etc, but I don't see that being too productive for BW only trained legs.

Also, for bodybuilding purposes, if you can't tax certain muscle groups enough with just your body weight, they won't grow.

Even for the upper body exercises with weights make it a lot easier to vary and control the resistance. And you have more options. Handstand pushups are comparable to an overhead press, but what's comparable to a bench press? Good solid compound movement, that.

I do various forms of pullups and some rope climbing, but I think weighted pullups are the no nonsense way to increase pulling strength.

Therefore I think that unless you don't have access to equipment, various forms of weight lifting and BWE should complement each other. Why limit yourself when it comes to efficiency in improving strength, coordination, and body composition?

Gymnasts use other methods of strength training than just BWE, even though the sport is more focused on body positions than any other.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
That's an urban legend. He does and did use weights but he also did alot of body weight exercises.

http://www.usaweekend.com/health/fit...a_fitness.html

George Foreman:

I've seen Walker win a lot of contests on TV. I've also met him a few times; he's a great guy. He has an excellent body and has been able to avoid injury over a long career, so he must be pretty flexible. He's a strong man, but very balanced.

According to his agent, Walker swears by a routine that does not include weight lifting. He does 750-1,500 push-ups and 2,000-3,000 sit-ups a day. He does different sets of push-ups: with hands close together, with hands more than shoulder-width apart, and with hands down by his waist. He also runs, jumps rope and does isometric exercises (such as dips) using his own body weight as resistance.

In the off-season, Walker practices martial arts several hours a day and runs sprints in addition to his sit-ups and push-ups. He eats just one meal a day (usually broiled chicken with vegetables) and does not drink alcohol.

As I've said before in this column, I never worked out with weights when I was world champ in 1973. I got in shape with push-ups, sit-ups and old-fashioned hard work like chopping wood and stacking logs.

Exclusive BWE is his press story, at least. He has a book out about his training methods:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

[Ford Prefect]

Except of course college and NFL teams have regular mandatory weight lifting that you have to attend and perform. He may use exclusive bwe's before and after his college/nfl days, but not during. Also, let's talk about the rule rather than exceptions to it. Walker is a genetically gifted indivual.

[IronFist]

Yeah, you can't make cases based on exceptions to rules.

I have big shoulders and I never do shoulder work. Does this mean the best way to develop shoulder size and strength is to never do shoulder work? Of course not! All it means is I'm a freak and you can't go by what I do.

[rubthebuddha]

not to debate foreman, but i'm thinking he got socked in the head too many times:

does isometric exercises (such as dips) using his own body weight as resistance.

the name of the exercise -- dip -- implies motion, of which isometrics have none.

and yes, walker and ironfist are both freaks.

[FooFighter]

IronFist:

I recalled that Charles Poliquin taught in his book that it was possible to get great shoulder development indirectly by doing compound upper body movements. So you arent so freakish and it is quite normal.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by red5angel
That's an urban legend. He does and did use weights but he also did alot of body weight exercises.


As for navy seals and army rangers, if no one has said it before now - there are a couple of reasons Mr. Fury forgets to mention as to why they mostly use body weight type stuff. First, large amounts of muscle mass are hard to support, you have to get alot of calories and you have to lift a lot of weight consistantly. Something you won't necessarily be able to do when humping it 120 miles to the bad guy and back.

and they have ample fuctional strength regarless..............

RTB........You're telling me I'm grumpy smurf no??........hilarious.........you should read the other folks posts from this seat

abobo.why do want bigger muscles exactly??.........since when does size equate to greater functional strength??

ON WALKER: okay, I don't believe in the concept, but for arguments' sake, lets say the guy is a gentic freak............how does he choose to optimise his god-given potential???....BWE.......He is not an exception at all and I can absolutely see myself doing his routine, if I didn't have other knowledge for variations.............

so far, you've hardly been objective nor provided anything intellent. If you state you're right, I want links! Challenge has been issued, have you got case study links to examples or the reverse trade for better results or don't you???

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FooFighter
IronFist:

I recalled that Charles Poliquin taught in his book that it was possible to get great shoulder development indirectly by doing compound upper body movements. So you arent so freakish and it is quite normal.

It's possible in some cases, ie. mine.

Other people have no such luck with it. I know people who don't do any should work and get no development, and then they do shoulder work and still get no development. Those people just have shoulders that don't want to grow... kind of like my biceps.

[rubthebuddha]

no, i'm not saying you're grumpy smurf. i'm implying that you asking someone for links to support them is conspicuous, as you don't provide backup even after criticism and request of this lack.

[blooming lotus]

at least I've given you something, and already there have been other examples posted to support my theory ( regarding BWE over weights ; for those who didn't catch it ( FF take notes)).

I get harrassed often here for not doing the very thing you no one else here will offer. When the shoe's on the other foot, can you walk the mile?