weight lifting vs pure bw

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
When the shoe's on the other foot, can you walk the mile?

You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd.

[blooming lotus]

don't worry, if you're too scared to challenge your own knowledge and can't give me information to support what you claim, I'll go elsewhere............discussion over.

[rubthebuddha]

The SAID Principle: Your muscles and their respective sub cellular components will adapt in highly specific ways to the demands (adaptive stress) you impose upon them in your training. This applies as well to various bodily systems and tissues other than your muscles. This is the "SAID" Principle, an acronym for "Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands. If your training objectives include becoming more explosive, then you have to train explosively. If you desire greater limit strength (primarily from an increase in the cross section of myofibrils), you must use heavier weights than if you were training for (say) local muscular endurance (capillarization and mitochondrial adaptations). If your objectives include deriving cardiovascular benefits, then you must tax the heart muscle as well as the oxygen-using abilities of the working muscles.

composed by Fred Hatfield, PhD MSS, from http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?act...e&articleID=38
Dr. Hatfield, in addition to being an expert in sports science, has previously demonstrated physical skills to compliment his sharp mind:
Squat: 1014 pounds
Bench: 523 pounds
Deadlift: 766 pounds
Total: 2303
Snatch: 275 pounds
Clean and Jerk: 369 pounds
Olympic Lift Total: 645 pounds

all you had to do was ask. if you need more, simply do a search for "specific adaptation to imposed demands."

[blooming lotus]

that's not what I asked for. So he can lift a truck load.........so what??.........I'm talking examples of functional strength as an elite world class athlete where prior they did BWE , made the trade and took the crown as a result......you know if it was the other way around, you wouldn't be satisfied either and by now we would be on 6th page of insults toward my intellegence, experience, sexuality, parenting, location, asthetic value and so on so forth ( yes .the majority of responses present like that).........I don't care. I asked you to put up or shut up, you had nothing but patronisation and trite comments...end of story

[Fu-Pow]

The funny thing to me is that the guys on this forum hold power lifters and strengh training in such high regard.

When's the last time you picked up your opponent over your head and smashed him into the ground?

If you did, wasn't there a more efficient way to get the job done?

As a martial artist you want your conditioning to be at the same time very general (to be adaptable) and also specific to your chosen art.

Here for example is what I train:

All manner of stretching including PNF stretching.

Internal work (Nei Gong):

-Sitting/Standing meditation
-Chan Si Gong exercises (think spirals)
-Hun Yuan Gong (think opening/closing of the torso)

External Work (Wai Gong):

-Regular Knuckles pushups
-Forward/Reverse Hindu Pushups on the knuckles
-Crunches
-Diagonal Crunches
-Oblique Crunches
-Stance training
-Plyometric hopping up and down stairs

As part of a very general cardio circuit training:

-Lat pull downs
-Military press
-Tricep pull downs
-Bicep Curls
-Back extensions
-Cable Rows
-Pectoral Flies
-Reverse of pectoral flies (can't remember name)

Cardio:

-Jump roping
-Bag work


Then there's all the stuff that is very specific to my art involving forms, hard conditioning, weapons, free sparring and push hands. (These facets of my training involve more than one aspect of training so they are hard to categorize. )

It's a lot I know....i'ts because I train two styles with their own strategies, body mechanics, exercises etc.

Anyways, my point is that you want to train for speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility in a very general kind of way.

And then in addition train the movements that are functionally specific to your art.

For MA's I don't think you want to be training like a power lifter, nor like a long distance runner.

You really want to cross train in a "general gymnast"/dancer kind of way.

[blooming lotus]

just took this one to the shower, and in the name of fair play, let me pose this question....from experience, who here can tell me ( if you can't answer the initial request), that they are using this method of weight training to acheive results at world class standrard , there -fore I cannot possibly be right and your system is working to produce these results?????

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
that's not what I asked for. So he can lift a truck load.........so what??.........I'm talking examples of functional strength as an elite world class athlete where prior they did BWE , made the trade and took the crown as a result......

How about your Hershel Walker example? He did only BWE when he was in high school. Big deal. He was a gifted athlete and could have sat around and eat MCDonalds and still have been better than his competition.

It's a completely different story after high school though. In Division 1 College Football and in the NFL, the teams have athletic trainers. Especially in college, there are regular mandatory weight lifting sessions that you have to attend. Every single team uses weights at the corner storn of their strength and conditioning program. He lifted weights in college. He lifted weights in the pro's.

Who knows if he would have been anywhere near as successful if he was allowed to just do BWE. The thing was that he wasn't. He lifted weights and became a great running back...


This is really a moot point. The most important thing in many athletic disciplines is the training of the dicipline itself. Like somebody already said, SAID: Specific Adaption to Imposed Demands. Using things like BWE and weights will help with gross motor movements. For example, a hip extension. This is the prominant movement in sprinting and jumping, both of which require explosive action. Things like a power clean and explosive squat will directly carry-over to running and jumping ability.

There are diminishing returns though. Once you reach a high level of strength, eeking out an extra 3 pounds on your squat really won't mean much. That's when you have to train the skill itself. You have to train your form and the mechanics of running to get the most out of your strength levels. This is the line between GPP, General Physical Preparedness, and SPP, Specific Physical Preparedness.

This is the same for any physical activity. A Navy SEAL needs endurance most all. He trains this through high-rep BWE's which tax his body's endurance systems. He jogs and swims for miles and he rucksack maches long distances. All these fit a specific need of his.

A Football player needs explosive strength and speed. If you want somebody to become a better sprinter over a short distance, would you have them go out and run 10 miles? Likewise if they need to create explosive force for a split second, would you have them do a low intensity exercises for minutes?

Even if we didn't know everything we do today about human biology, biomechanics, and physiology it just wouldn't make sense to do that? Get your head out of the clouds and actually think about it.

[Ford Prefect]

Fu,

We are not talking about martial arts. We are talking about different means of developing different types of strength. BL is insisting the you can use low intensity exercise (ie a push-up) that taxes a certain energy system to increase strength levels in a high intensity exercise (ie a bench press).

As dense as you generally are, this sentence holds a great deal of truth and is well said:

Anyways, my point is that you want to train for speed, agility, flexibility, muscular balance, endurance, power and adaptibility in a very general kind of way.

And then in addition train the movements that are functionally specific to your art.

[blooming lotus]

who said walker did weights???.....he claims he didn't and no-one else besides a few submisations indicate otherwise.

Seals and berets are world class combat professionals and you know their drill. Regardless of why, they don't lift.

To make it very clear, I am not asking how your system works because that I know already. I am asking if you have examples and links of where it has been directly responsible for world - class combat performance and acheivement as opposed to where the athlete had used BWE prior to no joy.

[Ford Prefect]

Functional Strength vs. What? Unfunctional strength? Any strength gained can have obviously have a function, so how did this term come about and how can we define it?

Truth of the matter is "functional" strength is a term that is oft thrown around but ill understood. It doesn't mean real world strength. Like I said, doing curls will help me in some actions both in the real world and on the grappling mat.

Where it actually comes from:

Functional Strength: A term to describe strength gained through neurological adaptions. You didn't add muscle, so the increase in strength is in the better "function" of your muscles and nervous system.

It's counterpart:

Structural Strength: These are strength gains due to muscle growth; both myofabrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Both types add strength; just different dimesnions of strength.

That's all. Can we please stop throwing around that term?

[blooming lotus]

functional strength as in relation to your specific objective..and picking up boulders at the strong man competition is not what I am refering to.

I really think Fu pow has the right idea. Martial Artistry is not so much a feat of strength as it is skill, edurance and cariovascular. I guess this why at the most highly reputed school in the world for ma training ( Tagou martial arts academy - shaolin ), they have the compents of drills, acrobatics and form.............. resultant strength from this programme is ample and we have seen world class champions come from this system consistently from its' conception.

I personally equate martial performance similarly to FuPow, and train accordingly.

I don't want to get your panties in a knot if it will hurt you, so being that there is no real evidence to support your claims of viabilty of your method, I am happy to shelf it and close the thread.

thank you for participating

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
who said walker did weights???.....he claims he didn't and no-one else besides a few submisations indicate otherwise.

How about all the trainers for the Cowboys when he joined them. Even Herschel Walker in his own book says he did plyometric training which is a form of high intensity training.

Seals and berets are world class combat professionals and you know their drill. Regardless of why, they don't lift.

Actually they do lift. Their jobs require them to have massive amounts of endurance, so that is what they focus on. The do lift though. Don't take my word for it though. Go ask Stewart Smith as www.getfitnow.com forum. He's a former Navy SEAL and he created the SEAL's indoc course to get hopefuls up to par on their strength levels.

To make it very clear, I am not asking how your system works because that I know already.

To make it very clear, it's not my system. It's how the human body works. It adapts to specific demands imposed on it. Very simple principle. Like I said, would you train a person who needed to be able to sprint 50 yards by having him run 10 miles? Why not?

I am asking if you have examples and links of where it has been directly responsible for world - class combat performance and acheivement as opposed to where the athlete had used BWE prior to no joy.

I know Frank Shamrock used a mostly BWE regimen before graduating to using weights as a primary focus. The power and speed he gained from that weight training and plyometric training is what he says is responsible for his victory over Tito Ortiz in a UFC middleweight championship fight.

Now let's hear your example of where BWE's were directly responsible for world class combat performance when the athlete had previously done weights to no joy. Bare in mind, that when Matt Furey won his championships he was still training with weights. Only afterwards did he meet Gotch who showed him what is covered in his Combat Conditioning course.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

I personally equate martial performance similarly to FuPow, and train accordingly.

I don't want to get your panties in a knot if it will hurt you, so being that there is no real evidence to support your claims of viabilty of your method

lol! You silly little girl. I agree with Fu Pow and even said so before you posted.

In the strength training world is is called GPP (general conditioning) to increase various attributes. For instance, you train bwe for endurnace, weights for strength, etc.

Then there is SPP (specific conditioning). These would be the drills and movements specific to your sport.

Pick up a book. It helps.

[blooming lotus]

really???............well there's a nice peice of sarcasm.what happened??.catch you on the back foot???


I am only continuing to post because I respect your desire for knowledge in this respect. The arguement is sealed as far as I'm concerned unless proven otherwise. You're chasing tails, stating untruths and disregarding information given.

I've got lectures to plan so perhaps I'll return a little later.

Peace Ford

[blooming lotus]

Ps.....ever heard about the old dog and new tricks ????