weight lifting vs pure bw

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
functional strength as in relation to your specific
I really think Fu pow has the right idea. Martial Artistry is not so much a feat of strength as it is skill, edurance and cariovascular. I guess this why at the most highly reputed school in the world for ma training ( Tagou martial arts academy - shaolin ), they have the compents of drills, acrobatics and form..............

If this is you definition of what MA or Fighting people should be then I would sugest following training reigemes of Cirque De Soile and other acrobatic troups.Others may see MA skill in modern day presented in active military groups (such as special op divisions).Others may see it as a mix of Asian culture, philiosphy and tradition(in training).You could argue forever (and I think many on forums spend haours doing just that) as to which is more "real" "better" etc, and in the end its largely determined by your own eniviroment and goals.
Eithier way all use weight training in some format.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
resultant strength from this programme is ample and we have seen world class champions come from this system consistently from its' conception.
I personally equate martial performance similarly to FuPow, and train accordingly.

Its been said before,but this is largely your opinion /perception of "how it is"."World Class Champions" at what?Who exactly are they competing against? Can they compete in Olympic Gymnastic apparatus events?
It seems this arguement comes round every few months and is continued by the factor that definitions are never set.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
The funny thing to me is that the guys on this forum hold power lifters and strengh training in such high regard.

When's the last time you picked up your opponent over your head and smashed him into the ground?

If you did, wasn't there a more efficient way to get the job done?

Ever grappled with someone bigger and stronger than you? I guess not. Cuz otherwise you wouldn't be making that argument. All else being equal is the guy who can deadlift 800lbs going to be harder to grapple with than the guy who never deadlifts? Yes.

As a martial artist you want your conditioning to be at the same time very general (to be adaptable) and also specific to your chosen art.

And part of that conditioning is raw strength. Doing 300 pushups a day won't help you push a 300lbs biker off of your chest in a fight. Doing Hindu squats all day won't give you the raw strength needed to manipulate a heavy opponent on the ground.

And that's all because of SAID.

For MA's I don't think you want to be training like a power lifter, nor like a long distance runner.

That's your opinion. I want to be strong, so I model my training after the strongest people.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
How about all the trainers for the Cowboys when he joined them. Even Herschel Walker in his own book says he did plyometric training which is a form of high intensity training.
[/B]

This really isn't my argument to get into. I brought Herschel up just as an extreme example of someone who promotes BWE and dynamic tension. However, I would be curious for you to point me toward some references that mention his weight training, because everything I've found says he claims he didn't use weights, even in the NFL. I saw an interview on ESPN a couple of years ago in which he explicitly stated he relied purely on BWE, which is what I was basing my original post on.

NFL athletes have strict training regimes, but at the same time, they are allowed some individuality in their workouts. Jerry Rice had his own routine, as does Ray Lewis, and most other upper eschelon players. So, I could conceivably see Herschel being allowed to train himself under team supervision as long as he stayed healthy and performed on the field.

That being said, I haven't read his book (although a friend recommended it a couple of years ago). If you say he says he lifted weights in his book, I'll take your word for it.

Personally, I lift and do BWE on a regular basis (or as regular as the baby allows).

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
Ever grappled with someone bigger and stronger than you? I guess not. Cuz otherwise you wouldn't be making that argument. All else being equal is the guy who can deadlift 800lbs going to be harder to grapple with than the guy who never deadlifts? Yes.

in all honesty, when is there really ever "all else being equal"?.there are always sublties in application methods, constitution and philosophy etc etc.even at even weight and supposed "skill" level

And part of that conditioning is raw strength. Doing 300 pushups a day won't help you push a 300lbs biker off of your chest in a fight.

I think I might enjoy hearing you tell that to a seal or Beret who weighed in at equal to yourself.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
in all honesty, when is there really ever "all else being equal"?.there are always sublties in application methods, constitution and philosophy etc etc.even at even weight and supposed "skill" level

No, chances are it will never be an issue of "all else being equal."

HOWEVER, I was just saying that to illustrate a point. People do that all the time to simplify things.

I think I might enjoy hearing you tell that to a seal or Beret who weighed in at equal to yourself.

Telling what to a Seal or Beret? That all else being equal, the guy who can DL 800lbs will be harder to grapple with? I'm sure a Seal or Beret would agree with me.

[Toby]

This thread's funny. It's a ****fight and I haven't even got involved yet! Lol!

Eyebrows, I think people will struggle to find an example of someone who was trying to be elite level and not making it doing solely BWE then switched to weights and suddenly "made it". Because almost all sub-elite level athletes will already be lifting. Now using your logic, the lack of evidence on "our" part will mean that you were right all along - so you won! Congratulations - you are brilliant!

Anyway, me no know NFL, but all Australian AFL teams do regular strength training with weights. So do the Wallabies and (I'd hazard to guess) the Super 12's. As would the NRL. So of all the "elite" sportsmen in Australia, none would do only BWE. Unless you wanted to include cricket, but they aren't really elite athletes IMHO. Highly skilled at what they do, but not athletes (look at people like Warnie, Merv Hughes or Boonie). Still I'd guess most would be doing weight training of some sort. In the interests of sharing, what elite athletes or teams can you cite who only do BWE?

BTW, there is only one elite athlete on these boards that I know of. That's Merry. You'll have to ask him his training program - I don't know it.

[blooming lotus]

he would tell you that he couldn't do his job because he didn't bench 300???

sure he would

[blooming lotus]

Ps.I'm not talking about freaking football.for crimineys sake...........I'm talking man against man combat..........your body vs mine.............

but while we're here, at least I have had the privildge of training under my father and his 5/8, who were national long distance and sprint champions , olympic qualifiers and service men in the NZ Army from a line of soldiers both. It's all I have in the way of int. championship claim to fame, but it's more than likely alot more than others have, even if only for the insight into the combat and taining psycholgy of such, and elite performance in general.

[Toby]

I won't be able to find any since I don't know any "world class combat athletes from Australia" 's training programs. Danny Green? Jeff Fenech? Kostya Tsyzu? Mark Hunt? Elvis Sinosic?

Anyway, why only man against man? Sexist .

[blooming lotus]

(hu)man...........:P

alot of these folks are outta towners anyway, so half of their techniques are from elsewhere..............but australia does have ss ( I know because if I was prepared to take a duel citiszenship I'd be (.no.I wouldn't be front line, because women can't serve).like an ss helicopter chick or something. Don't under rate the green and gold............we have our elite

[IronFist]

What are you guys talking about?

[Toby]

Eyebrows, you mean the SAS? They're about a kilometer as the crow flies from my house. My neighbour across the road was a long time chopper pilot for them. Private contractor now.

Now, I know that arrogance isn't your weak point, but you really think you'd be able to be in the SAS? Not without an operation and some hormone treatment AFAIK. Even then you'd be too small. They're very strict on entry requirements. You wouldn't be able to be a chopper pilot for them. You wouldn't even be able to work for a catering company at their base, I reckon.


Iron, me and Eyebrows are talking now. None of what we talk about makes sense . SAS == Australia's military elite. Equivalent to Seals, maybe? They're very good at what they do, anyway.

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
.but australia does have ss ( I know because if I was prepared to take a duel citiszenship I'd be (.no.I wouldn't be front line, because women can't serve).like an ss helicopter chick or something. Don't under rate the green and gold............we have our elite

WTF
What are you talking about??!!!
SS represents what????
Australia has SAS and Comando's on CT.
Combatlenty going on around the world so jump in.
Its unlikely in theatres of war(combat) that anyone any where goes one on one fair or unfair.The goal of most frontline miltary organisations is the close with the emeny and kill them.Not to give them a fair go.Aust infrantry strategy is 3:1(3 of us to 1 of opposition if attack is to be considered),the US is higher.

If you want a demostration of best skill of individuals within one on one, hand to hand then the many Full contact competitive sports are area in which to find them.If you want acrobatics and form work go back to shaolin.
Please regcognize the differences.

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
but australia does have ss ( I know because if I was prepared to take a duel citiszenship I'd be in

Are you are talking about the SAS? Allthough I think you are talking about ASIS or ASIO (actually I really don't know what you are talking about)Tell me when you served in the miltary to be "in", the SAS doesn't take direct entry.I have done the Cadre course and "pulled the pin" as they say in the third week.I can tell you that
1.no women on the cadre
2. there is a lot of load bearing work.
3. training programe for the cadre has lots of weight lifting as well as endurance work.

[Toby]

There'd be no chopper pilots in ASIS or ASIO unless they're really hiding what they do well. Which I doubt .

Anyway, early this year the SAS did have a direct intake. I was actually (for a fleeting second) thinking about applying, but I'm afraid of heights and it's not called Special Air Service for nothing . IIRC they were after specific people - ex-high level sportspeople in particular (AFL etc).