weight lifting vs pure bw

[Ka]

Originally posted by Toby
Anyway, early this year the SAS did have a direct intake.

Fair Enough, I didn't know they had direct entry now(but I am surprised not many sportpeople have much experience in running in GPs).Although I did know they are recuriting for the ADF in general like mad men,no surprise given the current world climate. This might effect the entry stardard,even in my day they had "Weetbix" intakes,but none the less I don't buy our 47kg friend as a "sure thing" let alone her mental status.I thought for a moment she was thinking about he Spy business.
BL: So now you can fly a helicopter?

[blooming lotus]

yes the sas.I think the only pre -requ was that I'd've needed to serve 2 yrs as an officer ( which I go straight in as) first.front line is out for chick, medic , chopper pilot etc in.gotta run

[Merryprankster]

LOL at the concept of me being elite! I appreciate the compliment though! I'm working towards it.

When I win the Pan-Am's and the World's in 2005, you can call me elite.

So I'll be prepared to take your congratulations then!!!

[FooFighter]

I have read all the arguments here and to be quite frank it is rather pointless to argue and try to change the convinctions of anyone here. There is no productive and enlightening discussion present but a mob attack on a woman who in my opinion does not know well enough to present her case with supporting evidence. Not that "evidence" alone should lead us all of our daily beliefs and choices in life because there are things which the hearts desires that reason or common sense doesnt know 'why'?

If Ms. LotusBloom, who seems to be in Matt Furey's camp of thought, wants to believe BWE is superior than weight training and she is a bad arse navy seal type warrior, then so be it. The will to believe is more important than strength training. If that is your sincerest belief, madam, then God bless you and more power to your bad arse self. In the end, what does it matter to you or I if Ms. Bloom changes her tune? It makes no difference in my book.

The only thing I will say to you Ms. Bloom is that you made it clear that you believe some of us are all anti-BWE and we are strong minded in the superiority of weight training over BWE. This is not the case and we arent all Iron Heads, Iron Fist <kidding>, and or meat heats when it comes down to strength conditionings. Some of us have a healthy balance in knowing how to combine the best training methodologies in a very functional and productive long term periodization plan. Good Luck and Best Wishes Folks.

Your loving A-Hole,

[Ford Prefect]

Gymnastics is completely different from performing 100's of BWE reps, Wall. The movements and positions in gymnastics require high degree's of muscular tension in order to perform. That's what your muscles react to. They don't know the difference between weights and your own bodyweight. All the know is how hard, how long, and how many times they have to contract. In a nutshell, the just care about how much force they need to produce and for how long. They then adapt to those imposed demands. Gymnastics requires large amounts of force... hindu push-ups do not.

[FooFighter]

Wall:

I like your post and thought you made a good point. I can respect and appreciate someone of your background. I always envied gymnastic people when they move with power and grace. From what I understand the secret of certain gymnastic movement is the generation of body tension which is a great skills in itself. This can be compare to power lifting due the fact that it is also requires generating tension. In some cases certain BWE does not requires to generate much tension, eg two arm push ups. However single arm push ups requires much more body tension and this can similar to Power training.

[wall]

Thanks FF ... FP, I agree, that's why I was talking about gymnastic-related bw training (pullups, rope climbs, static holds, power holds, etc) rather than generic bw training such as hundreds of pushups or situps, which is "endurance" rather than "strenght" training

[Ford Prefect]

Blooming Lotus,

Check out these links:

www.frankshamrockusa.com (attributes his weight training after doing bwe's to his success in beating Tito Ortiz in the UFC Championship fight)

www.getfitnow.com (Stew Smith former SEAL and creator of many of the Navy's SEAL PT courses talks about how lifting weights is a must)

www.renegadetraining.com (John Davies uses combinations of BWE's and weight training to produce world-class athletes in track&field, baseball, basketball, football, and soccer. He says that if you neglect one, you'll miss a lot)

www.defrancostraining.com (John Defranco uses mostly weights to train world class athletes in wrestling, football and basketball)

www.elitefitnesssystems.com (Westside Barbell has used mostly weights to premote world record holding power lifters, and world-class athletes in other sports including wrestling)

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/public...-training.html (USA Gymnastics Website has it's trainers talking about that in order for even a gymnast to reach elite levels, he/she must perform heavy weight training)

Many of the principles used to train these athletes including many world and olympic champions stems from research performed in the Soviet Union. It can be found in works and research studies by Vladamir Zatsiorsky, Mel Siff, Yuri Vershohansky, and Medyedev. The athletes include boxers, wrestlers, and judoka.

Please provide at least one example of a world-class athlete who attributes his success to bwe's when he previously had done weights. Please keep in mind that your poster-boy Matt Furey didn't switch to bwe until after he won his titles. Since he turned to bwe, all he's done is sell some tapes and talk some smack. He has not had one single fight in a competition...

[FooFighter]

Ford,

Why do you bother? I dont think she will change her mind and that is very very good thang. Why? Because single mindness or preference keeps the social world secure and makes it easy to conceptually understanding the nature of a thing. By the way, My ClubBell and order should be comming here today, hoorray!!! It is like Xmas without Santa.

[wall]

FP, I again agree with most of your statements; as you read in my earlier post I am an advocate of a mixed, pro-gymnast approach to compound strenght training, where the goal is maximum functional strenght in the widest motion range rather than max size or max outright strength in limited motion.

In that realm bwe are essential, but of a "power" nature:
- static holds
- power holds
- full range holds
- pull ups
- rope climbs
- pistols
- squat jumps
- handstand pushups
These are then combined with basic compound movements with weights exceeding bw:
- bench press
- squat
- weighted pull ups
- weighted dips

Together, and performed in the appropriate range of motion and in a variety of movement sequences, they give the athlete (IMO but more importantly in the opinion of top gymnastics people around the globe) the maximum functional strenght in the widest motion range.

Tested it on myself, and it did / does work. However this ISN'T a bwe program as in hundreds of situps and pushups, nor it's a bwe-only program.

I've never read anything by Matt Furey by the way, so no idea if the above is in line with his teachings or not.

Wall

[FooFighter]

Wall:

Go to www.mattfurey.com to learn more his philosophy. None of what you mentioned is part of his philosophy. For example, he stated when you able to do 300-500 hindu squats, then you are able to perform a pistol. Is this the best mean to develop the pistol? I bet I can get a person to do at least one or more pistol within a month, then a person who practices hindu squats for reps.

[wall]

FF & FP ... just had a look at his site, very very commercial however some stuff seems good (I read the spills on handstand pushups, stretching, edurance ... all stuff I wholly subscribe to). He does however seem to also advocate the 1000-push-ups-for-growth-and-strenght theories, which are obviously flawed. He seems in ok shape, frankly someone that makes a (good) living out of selling his fitness methods for MA and the like should be in much better shape IMO, well even I am and I'm stuck in an office 9-7

Overall from the little I've read I'd give him a 6 out of 10, but then what would I know I'm just an amateur whilst he's a professional with many published works etc

[Ford Prefect]

Wall,

I agree. There are numerous ways to skin a cat and there are many different attributes that require different approaches to develop. The static holds I assume are things like front levers, planche's, l-sits, etc. All of which take an extreme amount of muscle tension, and also almost as import: kinesthetic awareness.

Bl is just trying to skin a thick skinned cat with a rusty spoon. Don't bother with Furey. He's full of BS. Stew Smith (the former SEAL I mentioned above), and Wayne Fisher (aka Scrapper) have great calethinics work outs if you're interested. He makes grandoise claims (even goes as far as says he chanelled a ghost to create one of fitness programs), switched positions when it best suits him, and has never put his money where his mouth is.

Foo,

I'm bored. Normally I wouldn't bother, but it's been slow at work. The world would certainly be a boring place if everybody agreed. The problem with this is that it's argu'ing science vs religion for the most part. Every strength training researcher agrees with the principles I'm trying to state here. The US (NCSA) and the Soviet approaches are at odds on some things like muscle hypertrophy and periodization schemes, but all research from both sides points to the need for heavy resistance or light-weight using kenitic energy accumulation in order to premote strength and explosiveness. You cannot do it with just BWE. You can start for sure, but the resistance is fixed. You will plateau quickly. Arguing differently is like argu'ing the world is flat. It's rediculous.

[IronFist]

I can barely do 100 Hindu squats but I can do at least 5 pistols cold.

I don't think that being able to do 300-500 Hindu Squats is a prerequsite for doing pistols.

[FooFighter]

"He makes grandoise claims (even goes as far as says he chanelled a ghost to create one of fitness programs), switched positions when it best suits him, and has never put his money where his mouth is."

Dang I didnt know that 411. If that doesnt raise a red flag than I dont know then? Becos where I comes from that be mad crazy, son. Bananas! Word, Matt Furey is like Whoopi in "Ghost". You know speaking to dead people like the white boy in the 6 sense.
I bet he be speaking with Bruce Lee and Brandon on da DL. LOL. Yep, smoking the ill pipe and drinking gin and juice is what makes me create mad shyte too. Word!

[note: I am not serious. I do speak proper white american English and over the phone I sound like an occiental. (LOL) However I can fake a heavy asian accent too if you like. Today is Friday and I be speaking in my third native new yorker's languages ebonics...]

Ford: I know and I agree with your points but let BL do her thing and if people think the world is flat, it doesnt change anything for the rest of us... Enjoy the weekend.

One Love, One body.