Yang style in Houston?

[nairb]

Does anyone know a good Yang style Tai Chi Chuan sifu in Houston?

There are a lot of "health" Yang form instructors that don't have any martial arts ability or that modify the standard form too much and are too worried about every little shape of your hand or angle of your wrist.

I'm trying to find one that knows how it really works.

The closest I've found is Jeff Bolt's school but it still seems a little too "health" oriented for me.

TIA

[bamboo_ leaf]

How do you think it works?

[Midnight]

I think he means, he'd like to understand how the movements incorporate themselves into actual combat.

Which is understandable, I too wanted to know that when I first learnt Yang style. And thanks to a great teacher I do know. But I paced myself, and learnt it in phases, with the martial aspect being last.

You need to have the right frame of mind. Going into tai chi simply to learn its application in combat is going to be your first mistake.

[GLW]

Think about what you are asking for and then what a teacher has to work with.

For example, I teach two times a week. Each class is 90 minutes long (sometimes more...NEVER less).

In that time, there are warm ups, basic drills, review of one or more sets, then new material. This time is spent MOSTLY on routines. The correct flow of the waist, legs, stance work, etc... is where it all begins.

So, as a teacher, I want anyone in my class to have a minimum level of basics.

Now you add in the class dynamics. If you require everyone to learn the same things, you will run off otherwise good students. I have one student that absolutely has NO interest in sword. She HAS learned one sword set...but is not interested in pursuing more. Her barehand is OK...so to press her into more sword would run her off. She does fine in things like 42 and traditional Yang...but has no affinity or interest in Sun Style...so I don't push that.

See where this is going.

So, now you have a group of students that as a whole do not have an interest in the applications...so you don't take them there...except for where it can help their routines.

Also, you have a group of people that ARE interested in applications...but they start out with basics....and spend 90 minutes doing good work.... Then they start spending all of their time on Tuisho or applications...and the let the rest of their practice suffer.

So...how do you do this. The old way. A special one on one class at the teacher's discretion for applications. That training is in ADDITION to not in place of the other time spent.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I meant that you seemed to have formed a an idea of what it is and how it should be. Which would be good if you had enough experience to really know what you are looking for.

Sometimes what one seeks is right before them, but they cant see it because its not really what they want.

[nairb]

I'd think it should work something like Xingyi or Chen style where I've got some experience.

If you're going to spend years to learn a set because you have to learn how to hold your left pinky in the right configuration - only a slight exaggeration from my limited experience in some Yang style classes - I'm not sure your really learning anything other than dance movements. I'm not interested in ballet.

I'm pretty sure my concept of Yang style exists - as noted in the discussions on this board about Yang Chen Fu etc. - but is lost among the dancing Yang folks.

Just my opinion of course.

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
I meant that you seemed to have formed a an idea of what it is and how it should be. Which would be good if you had enough experience to really know what you are looking for.

Sometimes what one seeks is right before them, but they cant see it because its not really what they want.

[nairb]

I appreciate your point. This seems to be the quandry of the Yang style schools I've seen. Since Yang style spread first in the US they ended up with a "market" somewhere closer to the yoga/dance/pilates people and ****her from the hard martial arts. So the resulting class population still dictates what can be taught. I've talked to Yang dance people that actually hated martial arts and self defense, so you're not going to find many application fans there. Also I haven't met too many Yang people that have slipped over from hard martial arts like you see in Xingyi or Chen style.

I'm just thinking with all the new Chinese immigrants to Houston there may be some teacher that has an old school approach and hasn't been too influenced by the American tai chi dance market.

BTW, I'm not trying to imply anything bad about your teaching since I don't have any idea who you are. So don't take it the wrong way. I'm just making generalizations from my limited Yang style experience.

Originally posted by GLW
Think about what you are asking for and then what a teacher has to work with.

For example, I teach two times a week. Each class is 90 minutes long (sometimes more...NEVER less).

In that time, there are warm ups, basic drills, review of one or more sets, then new material. This time is spent MOSTLY on routines. The correct flow of the waist, legs, stance work, etc... is where it all begins.

So, as a teacher, I want anyone in my class to have a minimum level of basics.

Now you add in the class dynamics. If you require everyone to learn the same things, you will run off otherwise good students. I have one student that absolutely has NO interest in sword. She HAS learned one sword set...but is not interested in pursuing more. Her barehand is OK...so to press her into more sword would run her off. She does fine in things like 42 and traditional Yang...but has no affinity or interest in Sun Style...so I don't push that.

See where this is going.

So, now you have a group of students that as a whole do not have an interest in the applications...so you don't take them there...except for where it can help their routines.

Also, you have a group of people that ARE interested in applications...but they start out with basics....and spend 90 minutes doing good work.... Then they start spending all of their time on Tuisho or applications...and the let the rest of their practice suffer.

So...how do you do this. The old way. A special one on one class at the teacher's discretion for applications. That training is in ADDITION to not in place of the other time spent.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I'm just thinking with all the new Chinese immigrants to Houston there may be some teacher that has an old school approach and hasn't been too influenced by the American tai chi dance market.)

the old school approach just might be to make sure that your form is very correct. Be careful what you ask for, you just may find it is not really what you want, but what you need.

[GLW]

The old school approach IS to make sure your form is very correct.

Some old school teachers won't even discuss the HOW until you reach what they consider an OK level with your basics and routine.

Mine was this way...

Also, in teaching Yang...the routine takes a good while to learn....correctly. It is quite easy to do badly. Very hard to do well....it is also easy to make it LOOK like you know it unless you know what to look for.

With old school teachers, going in and telling them what you want to learn or how fast, when to throw in applications, etc... will usually result in not learning much at all.

Personally, I don't start a person with the long form unless they commit to a year up front. It is simply NOT worth my time to do that. I don't want to start down a road that they won't finish.

The long form takes at least a year to get through...and maybe more if you don't have basics. I have heard the "My basics are good" many times. I have yet to have a person that came in doing ANY routine I teach that did. Granted my sample size is somewhere around 50 to 100 over 20 years or so...but the result is usually people that tell you what they can do....can't.

Just my view and experience...your mileage may differ.

[nairb]

So I'm not going to find any Yang style group that emphasizes applicatoin over the angle of your left pinky instruction in Houston then?

What about any groups like in Asian where people just show up and practice together in a park?

[PaiLumDreamer]

Nairb, check your PMs. :P

[GLW]

Nairb, what you are looking for is a practice group and NOT instruction.

Sorry...but ALL Chinese styles and actually almost all styles in Houston are so polarized, the chances of finding this are poor.

People just dont interact with each other that way in Houston due to this...and even if they did, the city is large enough that it would be difficult anyway.

[nairb]

I appreciate the info. Here's what I'd like to understand.

I would think it is more important to learn at least one of the big segments of Yang style all the way through and get the big movements before spending a lot of time on getting every pinky finger arrangement just right. Instead, some instructors seem to try to make sure every pinky posture is perfect before moving along to the next posture.

Just my take, but its like if someone were trying to milk training $ out of students they would teach using the perfect pinky method instead of trying to go all the way through and then correct the whole form over time. Can you imagine a guitar or piano instructor stopping and correcting every single note in a complicated piece of music before moving on to the next one?

In fact, I've seen instructors that only visit their students periodically only start corrections after they learn general body movements of entire segments of the form. So I know this is possible and it makes much more sense to me.

Also, it seems like the student would get more of the health and martial benefit by getting through the big movements before beginning the detailed pinky corrections.

Again, this take is just my take based on limited exposure to Yang form instruction and I'm not an expert by any means.

[GLW]

"I would think it is more important to learn at least one of the big segments of Yang style all the way through and get the big movements before spending a lot of time on getting every pinky finger arrangement just right. "

This is EXACTLY so. However, there ARE a lot of instructors that spend time on things like "pinky placement" as you term it but NEVER spend time on fundamentals such as KNEE work, heel and toe connection, how the feet connect to the spine via the waist, the Kua, the sinking of shoulders and elbows, how the torso works...and so on.

For example, the knee is vulnerable in stepping. Left to their own methods, most students will NOT get the connection of the front and back foot with the pivotong on the heel of the front foot and the pushing of the pivoting toe from the back foot in doing a Gung Bu step. Instead, they turn the front foot while NOT turning the rear...and end up putting a torquing pressure on the knee of the front foot. do this long enough and you head for knee surgery.

Basic stepping takes a while. Just making it through the first section of the long form for a beginner can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months...and THAT is not with correct placement or movements.

Most people come in with no idea HOW to learn first. So, you have to teach basics while also teaching how to learn basics.

Line drills....very important. However, few people do them outside of class and not every instructor does them in class. For example, doing Part horse's mane across the floor...Brush knee across the floor, Fair lady...wave hands, etc... as a solo drill long before you hit partner drills. NONE of this stuff hits on the minutia of "pinky placement"

And I haven't even touched on mind, breathing, or power...

But, in use, there are a couple of things that to a beginner would SEEM like "pinky placement" but in reality form the upper body structure and make listening energy and flow work better....

some teachers DO milk student for as much as they can get. Known quite a few of them. Everything for them was a "Secret Technique" others truly try to hit the basics in a solid foundation way...but get confused with the milking teachers....