Choy Lay Fut Tactics

[Mika]

Joe,

You're right, forms and fighting in general are different (sometimes very different) in CLF. But if I am not mistaken, Tapani said something about sometimes having (or needing to, to execute something in a certain way) to leave yourself open under certain circumstances. I cannot recall exactly what he said, but I can think of something myself: if someone has longer legs than you and he quickly moves back after that kwa choy, then you kind of have to reach in with that pek choy in order to connect. Now, if this person is also a little taller than you (if he was a lot taller, a pek choy to the head or collar bone might not be the best thing to attempt), you would be even more open - for that split second - as you would be reaching not only forward but also a little upward.

In any case, this was just to illustrate how there are always trade-offs. What you said about the boxer holds true, but maybe he wouldn't be quite as open as the above mentioned guy with his pek choy because he is - once again, for a split second only - wide open (due to his going from left side forward to right side forward AND his left hand not having returned to guard quite yet). But if he does the same combo with shorter strikes, he's not really open at all, not at least the way I mean open here. Then it's another story altogether. But then he wouldn't have quite the same power, and if the kwa choy doesn't go through, the other guy might actually counter before the pek choy, so the whole combo is lost...or someone might slip, or maybe there's a front kick...

At any rate, fighting and forms are usually different in CLF as you said, but sometimes, especially since you have been doing everything in many ways, a "form-like" technique is in place. And sometimes it's not. Imagine the guy being successful with his kwa-pek...wheew...could be a devastating blow...with a lot of power.

No one was insulted, Joe
I was just trying say that Tapani has 12 years of Choy Lee Fut experience and has trained with some of the best around (Grandmaster Chan Yong-Fa, Sifu Mark Whelan, Sifu Barry, Sifu Lane, Sifus Markku and Martti Sipilä, etc.), so that you would know he was talking from his experience and not from having read books. And in any case, using these long-range techniques in a ring fight would be way out of the ordinary, that's absolutely true.

And I should really stop putting words to Tapani's mouth...

Peace

Mika

[Sow Choy]

Cool Mika

I think the combo you are illustrating is one I would't use like that, i prefer a straight line attack more to set things up a bit, and if I were to use my PeK Choy it would be right on my shoulder in a guard position... And our gwa choys circle up to the guard in sparriong/ fighting... So maybe we have a different way of execution. But anyways, I do see your point, and I think many in our family have the mindset of trying to refine our fighting techniques.

What are some of your favorite attack combos?

Peace,
Joe

[Mika]

Joe,

99 times out of a hundred, my (or most anyone's) kwa would be a short one and the hand would be back up on the guard before the other hand is committed, agree with you there. So, I guess our execution might be very close, actually. But on some occasions (especially outside the ring) some of longer techniques can find their place. And comparing Choy Lee Fut to, say, Pak Mei would also reveal something about being a little open sometimes vs. not being very open at all. But that's another story...

Favorite Choy Lee Fut combos? I'll tell you mine, if you tell me yours...

1) Pek choy (45 degrees)-cheung ngan choy-sow choy (say sow chui, 45 degrees upward) is a good one with the right footwork (45 degrees).

2) Cheung ngan choy (jab)-dang tsung gueuk-kwa choy-cheung ngan choy-deng gueuk is good straight line technique.

Your turn

BTW, Sifu Mark Whelan was known all over Asia for his absolutely devastating front hand pek choy. No matter what technique, kicks or strikes, you would throw at him, he would block it with front hand pek choy. Powerful stuff
You have trained with him, no?

Cheers

Mika

[Sow Choy]

Hi Mika,

Sorry, just got back from Taji Legacy in Texas just saw ur post...

Mark Whelan? Sounds familiar... I trained under Lee Koon Hung and now Li Siu Hung in Choy Lay Fut.

Some of my favorite combos are:

1. Leading foot sweep into straight punch, cross, sow choy, side kick and if needed more punches

2. Straight Jab, cross punch and twist step into sow choy to get around the opponent

I love to counter... thats when i enjoy it more. I find CLF style to be very sneaky and evil, ha ha ha ha!

Just kidding about the evil part, but definitely nasty. I also like to side step and throw cup choys alot... they seem safer for the opponent in sparring then sow choy...

Joe

[Askari Hodari]

My farvorite combo would be (immediately following a block): Yum Tsop (with the blocking hand) to the solar plexus, shifting into Ping (with the same hand), collapsing into gwa+kup, and finishing with Sao or Pek Choy...whichever would likely finish off my opponent.

Out of curiosity have any of you considered using the tiger or eagle claw in your CLF attacks. I have some pretty practical applications however I'd like to hear some of your opinions.

One example of how I would apply these weapons would be horizontal panther fist to the neck (adam's apple) followed by a yum tsop to the solar plexus, moving in and going for a groin grab with tiger claw and attacking the lower abdomen with kam while yanking out with the tiger (hence pushing with kam and pulling with tiger). I'd finish with a chinji pek choy to the temple.

Askari Hodari

[Shaolindynasty]

"I also like to side step and throw cup choys alot... they seem safer for the opponent in sparring then sow choy..."

I've been a big fan of the sow choy since I started CLF but I've been hearing this same thing from allot of people lately. I've been meaning to work on seting up for a gwa,kup combo more. Looks like I need to get to work on it.

A combo I've been working on is Chop(tsop) to the midsection, gwa,kup followed by a pow choy to the body or a round kick to the leg.

I also like gwa,wah, sow (not sure if you guys know what I mean) I like to clear the opponents arms with the gwa, then trap them with "wah" then hit them with the sow.

I also like to use round kicks to the inside of the leg followed by yeung chop, fun sau, yum chop

[Sow Choy]

chops to mid for me have worked in the mid of a combo...

Be careful fighting with a shot like that, unless ur opponents a bit slow, many styles train to verthorw the top, my experiences in and against wing chun have taught me to stay on top more... But whatever works for you...

I also like to throw a backfist as a fake alot...

But i teally like to use a loose twist step to get around the opponent, pretty wild how fast in can work


Joe

[Rhat]

How many of you have learned the Sup Gee Kau Da?

And what do you guys have to say about this CLF form?

Zatoichi

[CLFNole]

Anyone who has been doing CLF for some time should know this set. It varies a bit from lineage to lineage and sifu to sifu. This would be one of CLF's pillar sets, similar to Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen of Hung Ga.

The set contains all of CLF's main techniques and is quite long so it helps build your endurance and helps teach one to breath correctly. The set is not difficult on the surface but is an excellent training set.

Peace.

[Shaolindynasty]

I'm pretty new to CLF. I've only been training CLF for about 2 years. I spent a good portion of that time on basics and ng lun ma and ng lun choi. I recently just finished siu moi fah kuen and started lohan. I train with sifu sam ng www.ngfamilymartialarts.com

We have a form called siu kow da is that similar or the same? We also have one called siu sup gee

[TenTigers]

Although I am a Hung-Ga guy, one of my Sifus also taught me Hung Sing CLF-from Ho Ngau, I believe. Anyway, we did what he referred to as figure eight punches-gwa/cup continuous across the floor. When we attack wih it,one, it usually follows a low/mid line kick as a bridge, and the gwa choy blasts through your guard. It hits the face with the fist while at the same time the forearm blasts through your guard-very close range. The cup choy then crashes down, and is followed by more of the same from the other angle, etc
We also throw chuen som geurk/lien wan kuen-front thrust heel kick, chain punches. This combination is seen in the snake section of one of our five animal forms-but the punches are biu-jee's-white snake crawls over the log. These punches are identicle to Wing Chun Chain punches and is considered a bread and butter technique in that system. The punches are only thrown when you are inside their horse-knee to knee.
Although there are no unstoppable techniques-once you have closed the gap and are inside their horse, as much as I hate to say it-they are pretty much unstoppable.
Ok, there you have it-a Hung-Ga guy showing his favorite wing chun and choy li fut techniques and saying both are unstoppable!
Now, quit yer arguing and let's get down to buisness!
All kidding aside, the Choy Li Fut techniques do not leave you open, if you are throwing them hard, fast and through your opponent. Wing Chun punches are anything but weak if you have proper structure-rooting,alignment, etc. Oh yeah, and if anyone's even THINKING of saying it-Hung-Ga isn't slow, just some parts of our forms are. (I had to say it, I hear it so **** much!)

[Mika]

It's been a while since I have been to KFO last, so it's kinda old news as far as this thread goes but...
Just have to add one more important detail.

I was looking at CLF from a street fight point of view and you were taking more the ring fight viewpoint. I automatically look at any art from the perspective of street fighting.

Those two ways of testing CLF are of course very different in their technical output, and thus leaving yourself open really only holds true when it comes to a street fight. Those big round moves were developed for a reason, not just for show. But that reason was not fighting in a ring, you're absolutely right about that.

That should explain our dissimilar opinions.

//mika

[Sow Choy]

Hey Mika,

Welcome Back...

I actually was looking at it from a street fighting point of view. Our branch has always fought with very little rules. I have had my share of street fights, evne being jumped by 4-5 people once, which made me realise the importance of both arms and how one arm is hitting someone behind you or keeping people off you...

That experience put a whole new perspective on things. Now we train 2 or 3 on 1 to help us better understand that situation...

Being open or not is a pointless debate I think, especially since we do not block alot in CLF, No one is ever fully covered anyway...

Nice to hear from you,

Joe

[Mika]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
Being open or not is a pointless debate I think, especially since we do not block alot in CLF, No one is ever fully covered anyway...

Nice to hear from you,

Joe

Maybe it is pointless, but I never actually viewed as a debate. I thought that because of my language skills (the lack thereof, naturally) I just wasn't able to express myself clearly enough. Then I thought maybe we just looked at the issue from different angles. I still don't know which is what and who said what...

So, what I was trying to say was that if CLF is used the way it was probably originally intended, it does leave the fighter more open than fighters in most other arts - for a split second only, of course. The upside of that is more power, of course (a 33 inch punch hurts a lot more than a 3 inch punch). Win some, lose some, as is the case with just about everything in life. But long power inherently requires leaving yourself open, otherwise it would not be long power. And long power is what CLF is known for, even if short power is utilized in the art, as well.

Anywho, I am surprised and intrigued to hear you do not block a lot, because blocks to me are something that kind of stand out in Choy Lee Fut (when compared to many other MAs). Now that I have been learning something very different (Tanglang), I think that one of the reasons for a lot of things done in CLF is due to the "fight fire with fire", i.e. a lot of blocks and "hard power", especially long, penetrating hard power. Taking this aspect away from CLF would make the art something different, IMHO. If I am not mistaken, there is a branch of CLF where short power is the order of things, but then that branch is supposed (never seen it) to be very different from Chan CLF. Using both (long and short power) of course is great and probably how many Masters of the art, past and present, would like to see it done.

I have the book by your former Grandmaster (R.I.P.) in my hands right now, and the fighting applications seem to include long techniques, and I also see blocks there. Whether this was just for the book, I do not know since I have never really seen you guys in action. But it does look like the CLF I am familiar with.

I am both curious and a little puzzled, that's all...

But no one is fully covered, you're absolutely right about that, be it CLF, boxing, Savate, or whatever.

And Joe, I am not trying to mess with you or anything, I am just curious (and a little frustrated with myself for not being able to express myself well enough, because what I am trying to say is an essential part of CLF, and I know you know it, but I just can't communicate it to you the right way). In the best case scenario, I, and maybe someone else, too, learn something from this discussion

Good to hear from you, too!

//mika

[Sow Choy]

No Worriess Mika,

Yeah, this medium is hard to get what we wanna say and express correctly...

And yes we have blocks, but what I was talkin about was in our theory on fighting is to use attack as a defense, you will notice in GM LKH's book, 1 or 2 blocks which turn into a barrage attack...

And I have been around the world and seen many CLF schools... We are all the same, maybe different ways of doing the forms and different flavors, but still CLF...

Take care,

Joe