History repeating?????

[AmanuJRY]

I heard once that if the Chineese doctors of old had shared information and technique instead of keeping it a "family secret" that their ability and knowledge of the human body would far exceede western knowledge (this includes standard medical practice as well as TCM, for those who believe they may already be better).

Nowadays, I see this in MA throughout the world. People holding back stuff from students until they "qualify" (or at least reach the level of "top secret" clearance), like they are protecting their family secret. Or people who are afraid to discuss technical issues with people outside their "liniage" because they don't want to let the secret out or don't want to have their view challenged.

I read Hendrick's post on localised evolution and I realised, If we were able to accept change, differing opinions, and integration, and could share ideas without decending into arguments over the way things "should" be, we could see all the info and be able to rationalize, and absorb the "truths" that we seek. There is truth in all liniage and there is deception as well.

"Truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)"

There are those however who don't want this to happen, cause they believe they might lose their "edge", that is why the Chineese kept things secret, to protect the knowledge (for some obvious reasons and some not), are we repeating this behavior?

[Yaksha]

sometimes a person just doesnt want their student injuring themselves with something they obviously aren't ready for, so they don't tell the student about it until they are prepared otherwise they will foolishly play and injure themselves or somebody who shouldn't have been injured.

[Go Jun Long]

You also must realize that when a student comes into the door, how does one know their intentions right off of the bat, or if they are worthy of what you could teach them. Some will come only to quit within a few months or a year. Is this the type of person you want to have knowledge of your system? The hidden truth is not, in my opinion, hidden at all, it is only waiting for one to prove themselves worthy of receiving it.

My .02

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
... are we repeating this behavior?

I'm no sociologist or anthropologist, though it seems to me that with territorial and tribal instincts as elements of human nature, such behaviors are bound to repeat, though not for all or in same degrees.

Regards,
- kj

[AmanuJRY]

sometimes a person just doesnt want their student injuring themselves with something they obviously aren't ready for, so they don't tell the student about it until they are prepared otherwise they will foolishly play and injure themselves or somebody who shouldn't have been injured.- Yaksha

Ok, I understand the idea of progressive exposure to students, I'm thinking along the lines of experienced practioneers, from differing backgrounds.

You also must realize that when a student comes into the door, how does one know their intentions right off of the bat, or if they are worthy of what you could teach them. Some will come only to quit within a few months or a year. Is this the type of person you want to have knowledge of your system? The hidden truth is not, in my opinion, hidden at all, it is only waiting for one to prove themselves worthy of receiving it.- Go Jun Long

This is quite possibly the most acceptable reason. But, say it were you and I, you don't know what kind of person I may be, then again, you don't know what I may already be capable of or what I already know.

...with territorial and tribal instincts as elements of human nature, such behaviors are bound to repeat, though not for all or in same degrees.- kj

True.
Most studies on strategy would teach not to reveal any tactical ability to your enemy, at least not until you use it.

I suppose I was just ranting a bit. I suppose I had the idea that it could be possible to unite people of similar thought but differing liniage to mix, sort and discover the core truths of technique or theory.

[AmanuJRY]

I suppose it would require some sort of common threat or purpose in order to bring WC/WT/VT people together. I'm sure during the Ming/Qing conflict of legend, those who were on the right side shared info with each other (note; Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai or these and any other rebels in the R.B.O.C.).

Maybe our common threat should be the poor image of WC as a result of fragmented liniage and the disputes that come with it.

Just pipe dreams, I guess.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
I realised, If we were able to accept change, differing opinions, and integration, and could share ideas without decending into arguments over the way things "should" be, we could see all the info and be able to rationalize, and absorb the "truths" that we seek. There is truth in all liniage and there is deception as well.

"

1, Damo (boddhidharma) was running around China trying to tell people, that awareness is one, not the thought which one identify as self, or that ideas one derived. one is that awareness capable to think, not the thinker. But for thousand of years who listen to him? Some even using the idea of tribal and secretive trying to overwrite Damo's teaching in the name of Damo teaching, and it still happen today. just look around.


2, modern day research shows us our conciousness evolve and develop. and we dont have to live like 400 years ago.


http://www.chooseyourlife.com/ml/doc...alDynamics.htm

do we want to change? or we want to stuck at the 1700 where the chinese grouping into tribe and the Qing is acting like power gods? that is our choice.

One can imagine how WCK evolved with different wave of conciousness such as model in the spiral dynamics. If the leader or the sifu's doesnt aware of the conciousness evolution and we have a choice. Then, we all repeat the good old ways.

identify what type of wave of consciousness one's leader/teacher/oneself is from the spectum of the spiral dynamics and from there we can find out what is the theme of our WCK.

WCK GM from all lineages will reach tier two which starts with Yellow as in the spiral dynamics, somedays.

Not a simple issue. But it needs to brought out now because we live in an era of we have a choice to make our life and our art better.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
I suppose it would require some sort of common threat or purpose in order to bring WC/WT/VT people together.

If it goes that way, all WCK system will spiral down to survival level of tier one councious of the spiral dynamic model which is pulling a reverse gear. To survie, we might work together or we might kill each other to survive.

There are other ways. WE all spiral upward. or upgrade.

That is to educate everyone starts from now ----------- We can be better then ourself tomorrow.

We are the awareness not that thinker and not to control by our old thoughts. We can have different thoughts. We can change the old thoughts and produce better and better idea and system. We dont need to hold on to the OLD to feel secure.

That OLD tradition if use properly can be a great support to root us. USE wrongly, it will become our burden and trap that drain us to death.

confucious system is a great system for China when other parts of the world is tribal and surviva. however, confucious as it is without any improvement or evolve obviously run into problem when the west was starting to evolve, renesance, industrial revolution....etc.


With the Theory of localization Evolution and spiral dynamics models, we can predicting within next 10 years WCK wil evolve and break up into lots of small different groups where each of them needs to pragmaticly evolve to grow in response to the fast grow and evolve rate of globally technological or environment or health awareness or holistic living grow.

There are people who has over 10 thousand or over 100 thousand students today in WCK world wide. and these people has reach a great personal successfull level. They have proof themself. Thus, They can effort to spend time and money to lead to evolve WCK in a positive direction beyond personal agenda since they have already achive thier personal achivement. And, some might already started it, just we dont know.

And the return for their selfless contribution to WCK will be a fame which always remembered in the history of WCk as a great leader of this era.

[taltos]

Originally posted by kj
I'm no sociologist or anthropologist, though it seems to me that with territorial and tribal instincts as elements of human nature, such behaviors are bound to repeat, though not for all or in same degrees.

Regards,
- kj

I AM an anthropologist, and without splitting semantic hairs, kj is 100% correct.

-Levi

[kj]

Originally posted by taltos
I AM an anthropologist ...

That is cool ... yet one more vocation to add to our collective skill set.

Regards,
- kj

[anerlich]

My take on secrets is here:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/colu...5_secrets.html

The argument of not giving people of poor character knowledge that is too deadly, or which they might injure themselves with, is IMO fairly tenous in an age where just about any idiot can own a firearm, buy some oil and fertiliser, get a recipe off the web and kill several hundred people, and where we put teenagers behind the wheel of potentially dangerous missiles which kill thousands every year.

The parallel I am usually drawn back to is cryptography. The strongest ciphers are not those which are kept secret (security through obscurity), but those for which the methods are published, and everyone and anyone, including the best cryptographic minds in the world, is invited to hammer away at it, looking for weaknesses. Any cipher that can handle that sort of pressure for several years can be used with a good deal of confidence. Similarly with combat teactics, strategy and skill. Empirical testing is arguably more important than hifalutin theory.

I agree with kj and taltos' observations on human nature. We are all still cro-magnons, just our caves, our spears, and our bearskins have gone a little more hi-tech. Not our brains.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
The argument of not giving people of poor character knowledge that is too deadly, or which they might injure themselves with, is IMO fairly tenous in an age where just about any idiot can own a firearm, buy some oil and fertiliser, get a recipe off the web and kill several hundred people, and where we put teenagers behind the wheel of potentially dangerous missiles which kill thousands every year.

That is a very valid point, Andrew.

Also your article was informative, thanks for the link.


My thought was sharing on a higher level than a teacher/student basis, like a practician/practician level, but taking into account what kj posted and taltos backed up, this would be improbable without establishing some sort of trust based relationship.

[Ernie]

I suppose I had the idea that it could be possible to unite people of similar thought but differing liniage to mix, sort and discover the core truths of technique or theory


---- funny i do this all the time , part of a persons journey is to research and develop , by meeting and sharing will all types of matial artist [ not just wing chun ] so much can be gained
by limiting ones self to there tiny bubble [ lineage ] sure they can become the kings of there kingdom but the kingdom is just a spec of dirt on the earth

i don't think you really begin to learn until you leave the nest [ comfort zone ]

and in return when some one comes your way you are open with them this way thee is always fresh water going back to the source .

there are no secrets in martial arts , those that hide behind that are just liars

[AmanuJRY]

there are no secrets in martial arts , those that hide behind that are just liars

No secrets, just undiscovered truths.

i don't think you really begin to learn until you leave the nest [ comfort zone ]

This is what I mean by sharing concepts, but I now realize that it can't be done without establishing relationships (on some level) with the individual whom you are sharing with.

I guess my frustration in this is that most threads on this (and many other) forum end up going into the same arguments and never evolve past them. Acceptance of another persons ideals is important in the sharing process, not nessisarily assimilation of their ideals, but without accepting that that is their stance the process can't evolve.

Then again, it is hard to establish trust without knowing someone beyond an internet forum.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie


there are no secrets in martial arts , those that hide behind that are just liars

Everything can be find in the Internet. But not every process can be pice up to make what one wants with some key steps leave out.

There are no secrets in martial arts, those that hide behind are not liars but smart guys/gals purposely leave out somethings to let one delay or will never achive one's development.

One might find the left out step in this life time, One might not.


Yes, there are key steps those who knows dont want others to know. and those key steps were later called ----- secret. and they exist.