Hidden Apps in a Modern World

[mantiskilla]

HLL
"You also nailed it but it was backwards. You're trying to force the app to match an incorrect form rather than modifying the form to match it's usage. Maybe you can answer the question implicit in your comment. Why do you chamber the fist in the form if you don't do it when using the move for fighting? (I do understand the usage of the pulled back fist)"

Well, see, i would love to answer your question, but that is not something i ever learned, because all that i learned was forms. 4-5 hrs per day 6 days per week. this was already gone over could you tell me? maybe i should have learned from you. now how about gwa choy? do you modify this move from the form? it is an extremely uneconomical movement.
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BODY SCIENCE

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Um, you didn't really believe me when I said I fight with a low, wide horse stance did you?

Since this is your first post I'll assume you aren't aware that the smiley faces usually indicate a joking comment. Not to be taken real serious.

[sayloc]

HLL

do you teach a take down as you step behind their legs with your right and take them down over your rt leg with your right arm in front pushing back as you sink slightly (you may be holding their arm with your left from your last grab), lowering your center for the take down? This has to be done from inside fighting of course and it helps to have a little grappleing theory. I bet you could even YEE!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Man this thread is moving fast. The previous post was a response to Gaura. Welcome to the forum.

mantiskilla
If you notice, most of the Gwa Choys in the forms aren't done exactly like in 8 Basic Punches. I believe that's what you're referring to, the 3 Gwa Choys in LOG for instance.

The Gwa Choy is a backfist which is found in almost all styles from Karate to Kung Fu and I think it's usefulness has been proven many times. Your current style might not utilize this move, I don't know.

The preceeding hand movement clearing the way for the strike makes sense to me and follows the WL pattern of creating an opening for your attack. Gwa Choy also makes for an excellent attacking block where you not only block but attempt to inflict injury on the limb at the same time. Very economical.

I hope yo're asking with a true interest in understanding and not just arguing based on a bad past experience with WL. I get the distinct feeling that I'll alway be wrong with a certain group of individuals here because their hostility does not allow them to ever admit that anything in WL is good or works.

BTW, I'm sure whatever your learning now someone from another style, like Wing Chun, will come along and tell you how uneconomical your moves are. Seems to be the nature of the arts. Of course the MMA crowd thinks we're all full of BS.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

sayloc
To be honest I don't think I care for that too much. Reason is that it's too much a matter of balance. there are some moves that if you aren't quick enough or shift weight at the right time either party can take the advantage. In my opinion that is one of those times. If you aren't good your opponent can reverse the takedown on you tossing you forward over his left leg and dropping you face down in the pavement. Much better to do the WL standing leg sweep (fairly common in WL sets) as the momentum will give you an edge. Personal opinion of course.

Now if you look at Soy Long Pow Choy (side waving punch) you can step into a hill climbing stance with lead leg behind opponent and strike high causing him trip over the leg as he tried to move away from the attack. I think this move is suited more for a larger person with some weight. I wouldn't try it myself against a larger opponent.

I also don't yee. I leave that for the kids.

[mantiskilla]

HLL
Man, i meant chow choy. memory is going on me, but gwa choy is a close 2nd. what about the hand on the hip? i am truly curious.
But, back to the gw choy. no my style does not have a strike like that, but here is how i would make it more economical: forget the first hand with the block, the fist would block the strike, with the elbow kept down an in to maintain control, and you keep contact with the forearm(bridging) as you move in. one hand does it all, and you have another free and waiting to be used. almost like a cross in boxing.
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HURT FROM WELLBUTRIN

[Gaura]

HLL
I'm not new, nor did i think you were serious...this IS however what is taught in wah lum as THE basic stance..and though it is in fact drilled into the heads of students of WL, it would not be used in fighting...practically speaking, neither would woo dip ma, or gwai ma...certainly not du ling ma or dun san ma...not ?as they were taught. And the problem with how some of us were taught was that we started as complete novices with no knowledge of martial arts. We were given tools and no instructions on how to use them.

Additionally, we were strongly discouraged from seeking outside educational resources in martial arts unless it was approved by the Sifu...and why should I have to go to someone else to learn what I'm paying thousands of dollars to learn from my "Teacher/Instructor"...my Sifu.

Just because you have books, doesn't mean that you know how to read them, if you follow my meaning.

Now, feel free to attack what you think are my weaknesses, though you don't know me or what I know...assuming anything about anyone in these forums is a mistake. I think "hidden applications" is just the WL way of saying "I have no idea what that's for".

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm spending way too much time on this forum so excuse me if I don't answer all the questions and explain everything I know.

mantiskilla
Some uses for hand on hip (BTW, shouldn't actually be ON the hip but higher):
pulling opponent into you after a grab
rear elbow strike
for beginners it keeps the non-focused arm from just hanging or flailing about
a means of controlling the arms and using leg muscles for balance instead of extending arms for balance (common among beginners)

Chow Choy follows the same principle of clearing the way for the punch. Notice the Chow Choys are preceeded by a low circular block in Straight Form. Same principle, different move. Also, i don't feel constrained to do the moves exactly as taught. Each situation is different and hand motions and footwork can be mixed and matched to create new combinations. No sytle will give you every possible combination. You're allowed some creativity and are expected to apply the principles however needed. Something beginners don't know until they've trained for quite awhile. Techniques and forms are just examples of the principles to get you started. Kung Fu isn't like Karate where everything is set in stone and there's no room to deviate.

Gaura
Another one coming in with an agenda. Have you posted under another name or did you mean something different when you said you aren't new?

WL stances are taught low to develop leg strength. You always practice for more than you expect you will need to use. Train for 5 minute rounds by going 10+ minutes. Same philosophy.

Not to be attacking you but WL seems to get faulted for doing things that are common practice among martial arts. I really don't understand why.

Please don't transfer your experiences in WL to my way of teaching or doing things. You don't know me so follow your own advice and give me the benefit of doubt.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with your position that the basic stances are not useful in fighting 'as they are taught'. Maybe you learned them differently than I did.

Could you elaborate on the stances you currently use that you feel are fighting quality? Cat stance is fairly common throughout the martial arts. Are you saying it has no value?

Please send me a private message. Even my worst enemies here (so far we're all friends offline) will tell you that I'm straightforward and honest and will keep your identity secret if you wish.

Just wanted to add that the WL riding horese is the same as what I learned in multiple Karate schools. I've used it for sparring and fighting. Don't know what more I can say on the subject other than stick with what works for you.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Seems to me that most of the anti-WL arguments are based on an admitted lack of knowledge about how to use the moves. They personall can't use it therefore it is useless. That's not neccessarily true.

I have to question why some teachers (approved styles I guess) can say there are secret apps without anyone questioning their knowledge but when a Wah Lum teacher says it the meaning changes to "I don't know the apps".

BTW, Wah Lum teachers are allowed the freedom to teach how they see fit and with the number of schools across the country that translates to quite a few different perspectives on how and what to teach. Taking a bad experience and generalizing across the whole organization shows ignorance. It's like saying all blacks are criminals because the black guy down the street is a criminal.

This is the end of my comments on all this crap. I put yu shan in my ignore list to avoid getting dragged into anymore PL vs WL and other silly application arguments. Anything OTHER than open minded discussions and/or question about WL or topics related to the serious threads can be discussed by PM.

[Gaura]

HLL,
I actually do know you...

A forum is precisely the place for people to voice their opinions...good or bad. it is a means for people looking for information on a topic from the people who know it best. And for those of us who have studied WL under certain instructors, the disillusionment was both crushing and eye opening. I think people seeking information on WL should have our perspective as well as yours. I have heard current WL defenders say repeatedly...WL always gets the bad rap for this...or ANOTHER former WL'er with an axe to grind...etc and, yes, I'm paraphrasing...To those folks, I say, "If it looks like a duck..."

As for how you teach...well, if you are instructing your students in the practical application of the techniques, and providing them with an understanding of WHY a particular stance is taught as it is taught, then you are certainly a better teacher than I had....however, I think it's wreckless for those who are new to martial arts to have to gamble with choosing a Sifu. Sigung decides who plays that role...and given that certain people have made it through the gate, it makes me skeptical about the whole system. Honestly, can you blame me?

[18elders]

You keep stating our admitted lack of knowledge, your changing what we say buddy, we stated the lack of being taught knowledge, applications, drills etc, wich is what should be taught.
I could dream things up no problem but I don't feel i should have to pay someone to learn a form and that is it. it seems to me that you kind of egg on the differences not yushan.
Like i said before, i have done wah lum and now pong lai and have the 2 to compare to. YOu have not trained with us so how can you judge us?
We are stating fact about our training in the system, i'm not making anything up nor is yushan.
I was not kicked out, i left on my own free will so i have no axe to grind with them. But i do feel truth should be told.
We all have our differences and this is a public forum to express them, nobody should take it personal and we should all stay friends and kung fu brothers and try not to get angry with one another.

it's friday so i'm going to go have a beer!!!!!!!!!
keep training

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I apoligize if I incorrectly understood some of the posts. I got the impression from them that a lot of the ex-WL guys were clueless concerning apps (according to yu shan's lunch with 3 WL Sifus who supposedly said they were clueless when it comes to applying WL). I just don't make as big a distinction between figuring out apps as opposed the someone teaching me them. In fact I actually like researching the moves and finding uses for them. Granted that there are some I won't find, just as there are some I might not be taught (as expressed by other stylists, not just a WL phenomenon). If you have complete access to everything your teacher knows at any time during your training then good for you.

Personally I'll take whatever I can get. If I only get forms I'll make the best of it and study it until I'm satisfied.

Forgive my lack of knowledge concerning Tai Chi history but isn't there a story where a servant was not allowed to learn the family style so he watched their practice each night. When a challenge came to the family he stepped in and defeated the challenger. His perseverence in not allowing a lack of training to keep him from studying Tai Chi should be an inspiration rather than a condemnation of the family.

Also, I don't judge your training or your techniques. It's more the character of the person and the extant of the lies. Yes I did say lies as in zero applications are taught in WL. I find that statement impossible to believe (this was not one of your statements). I know you guys learned some apps while in WL.

I also have a problem with the assumption that anything thought up or discovered won't work. That idea is implicit in some of the comments about "dreaming stuff up" which is pretty much how the different styles started out in the first place. If you can dream up valid apps for the moves then why am I condemned for doing the same thing?

We're straying again and BTL will be chiming in soon I'm sure. Time to move on to something else.

[sayloc]

As far as secret applications or forms, maybe the sifu who is supposed to be teaching everything may just be smart enough not to run his mouth about not teaching you "everything" and holding back for certain students. That would be his right because they are his techniuqes. Isnt that what a secret is? Something that no one knows about or knows. It does sound like he gives more info though.

Only children run around saying "I know a secret".

Maybe the sifu that tells people that there are secret apps and forms that are saved just for family or chinese people (guessing on the family and chinese thing) should think before he speaks. It could save alot of problems.

Got to give the guy who has studied both styles some credit. After all he has studied both styles, but it is still "his opinion".

Maybe the HLL guy should take his friends up on their offer and train with them a little. Sounds like they know their stuff and it is always nice to train with different people. You dont have to leave your style just have fun. Im sure the other people (PL guys?) train with other styles a little.

If this would cause you political problems you could keep it you know..... a .........."secret"?

I dont know any of you guys, but thanks for the amusement.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
ie. boxers are good fighters and it's becuase they train hard.

...and because they spend the majority of their training time performing techniques that have direct application to their fighting. You will never hear a boxer talking about searching for hidden or secret techniques.

[devout]

people can round about to great extent
question someone's manner or methodology of training
but the crux of it is this...
no matter what you do
great or weak
hidden or clear
street or classical
if you do it enough times, that's what you will do in a clutch
and whether or not you walk away from the scene on top or on bottom all depends on how bad you want it, and how bad you want to take it from the other guy.
I love to train. After what I do all day long it remains a welcome respite, but as to keeping my head intact on the street I rely on skills I have learned from my little spin on this rock.
Those skills:
watch your back
keep you mouth shut
don't be a j***off
run faster than you can talk

practice your gung-fu because you love it, don't worry who can outstrip you....
if you have to fight on the street you failed long before the first blow was landed

btw....

I used to see ninjas, but I stopped huffing video head cleaner.